Terrorist leader speaks out

Why do you think the IDF could do this was far fewer civilian deaths?

the question now is who doesn’t think that the IDF could do this with fewer civilian deaths? Only the Israeli authorities and their supporters really. The American defence secretary seems to think it is entirely possible. It’s hardly an outlandish view at this point.

That doesn’t sound like good propaganda. The “just one big happy accident” bits. I can’t believe anyone would fall for that nonsense.

The OP’s link to these comments are not about Oct 7th, but about the aftermath and to me it is merely a statement of the obvious. It’s not even contentious to say you didn’t know how it would be 4 months later when in a war because hardly anything goes exactly to plan in a war. Not for anyone.

Why do you think the IDF could do this was far fewer civilian deaths?
Because every other army fighting terrorists has.

No, this propaganda about "they didn't think they'd be this successful" has been flying around for months. It's only now that they're pretending to attribute those comments to Sinwar. But quite a few anti-Israel posters on here have been saying it for several months, that Hamas didn't mean to murder/rape/maim/kidnap as many as they did, that they weren't aware of Nova festival. That it was all just one, big happy accident for the terrorists and their supporters.

Hamas do propaganda very well, so they've made sure to cover as many bases as possible for as many people as possible to fall for. And it's working incredibly well. They often do this, eg say one thing in Arabic and a completely different thing in English. It's nothing new. They're very experienced in lying and getting people to believe them.

Why do you think the IDF could do this was far fewer civilian deaths?

This comes up again and again, everyone seems to think there’s some sort of magic bullet for the IDF to use that wouldn’t kill loads of civilians. The only way you could potentially lower civilian casualties would be troops on the ground, but given the way Hamas is embedded in the civilian population this a) wouldn’t guarantee significantly lower deaths and b) would significantly raise the IDF death rate.

If you’re storming a flat where Hamas members are hiding and you use some explosive to blow down the door, but the whole damn building has been undermined by Hamas tunnels, and the thing falls down, you’ve done what you would have achieved with a bomb from a plane, but you’ve also killed your troops.

I can’t honestly believe anyone with responsibility for their own troops lives would opt for massively increasing their death rate, when there is a good chance it won’t even reduce the civilian death rate. Why would you send your own soldiers to die if you don’t have to?

all this “ceasefire now” and “aid to Gaza” from the Israeli perspective is “give Hamas a chance to regroup” and “while they’re regrouping, give them more supplies and more cash.” The images of the tunnels they’ve built under Gaza have shocked me. When I heard about the tunnels I expected Vietcong style hand dug crawl spaces. Not tunnels big enough to drive a car in. There is apparently 300+ miles of tunnels. While the Gazans are starving and dying. Why aren’t people screaming for Hamas to relent and “return hostages now, give civilians shelter in the tunnels?”

it’s genuinely baffling.

I think it is two different Hamas’ terrorists with their own opinions speaking months apart, not two different versions of events.

The Hamas terrorist, Hamad said they’d do Oct 7th again said that on 1 November 2023. On 1 November, things were not nearly as bad as they are now.

Sinwar said he didn’t expect the consequences to be so dangerous on 14 February 2024.

A lot has happened between 1 November and 14 February that would cause even the same person to change their assessment.

But Sinwar is a different person from Hamad, so their opinions are not going to be identical.

Hamad is also, critically, not in Gaza like Sinwar is. He is in Lebanon. He left Gaza well before Oct 7th. So it’s easy for him from his secure, safe armchair to view all the humans as pieces on a chess board and not give a shit about all death he has caused. To see the thousands of Israelis and Palestinians dying as some sort of acceptable blood sacrifice for his ‘cause.’

I agree, a ferocious counter attack was inevitable. There is a long history of disproportionate responses by israel and a general disregard for Palestinian life and of course this time would be no different.

I don’t think that anyone could have predicted that the conflict would go on so long though. I’m more surprised that the Israel authorities don’t seem to be backing down in the face of the mounting criticism, particularly from their allies, than I am by their reaction in the first place.

I don’t think Sinwar knew the full extent of what Israel’s response would be to the massacres on October 7th.

“Sorry, not buying this. He, and they, didn’t just know, they planned it out to the letter and the day!”

”As expected, Netanyahu dives headfirst into the trap.”

@etmoiandme you have too high an opinion of Hamas’ and too low of an opinion of Israel. Hamas are not evil geniuses and Nethanyu is not their predictably stupid sock puppet despite your creative fiction to that effect.

”….a lightweight response that lasts no "more than a few weeks”

If a few weeks is a lightweight response then what was October 7th by your perverse logic as it was one day of terror attacks? Feather weight?! I see what you are doing, and you can FO with that minimising shit.

It is all horrific and devastating: the one day of October 7th and the months of destruction in Gaza. I don’t think it’s awful to have expected a high tech, highly trained military to have been more efficient and effective in eliminating Hamas, with fewer civilian deaths.

People who support Israel in UK are quiet and unassuming, they fear the backlash and the threats from the people stomping up and down their streets screaming about what should happen to Jews (not Israelis) Jews. Reminds me of how no one dared speak out if they had GC views recently or views about grooming gangs for fear of being labelled racist. All a bit sad really, thought it was sorted in 1945.

I'm still curious how people marry this version of events with Hamas stating multiple times that October 7th was just a rehearsal and that they'll do it again and again and again. I know I already mentioned this once on this thread but it clearly could do with being repeated.

Please don't fall for any of this terrorist propaganda.

I was responding to your query as to why the thread has moved on to talk about "Israel being evil" I had no intention of derailing the thread

OK fair enough but it's not just you is it? And every single thread people do it.

I don’t think Sinwar knew the full extent of what Israel’s response would be to the massacres on October 7th.

Sorry, not buying this. He, and they, didn’t just know, they planned it out to the letter and the day!

Carry out the most depraved attack imaginable to poke the bear and elicit a response on an unprecedented scale. As expected, Netanyahu dives headfirst into the trap. Meanwhile the world turns against Israel and Jews, and as Israel’s response worsens beyond belief, Hamas strengthens its support from Gazans (and also from the WB). In turn, the massacre on 7/10 gets buried under growing hatred globally towards Israel, and attitudes towards Hamas "the resistance" soften, which has become very evident. And to reinforce this new-found sympathy, release a woe is me statement that ‘oops we didn’t know Israel would do this actually, soz’. With a side order of negotiation proposals that include some completely unrealistic stipulations to make it look like Israel's the only one not wanting a peaceful solution. And Sinwar? Well he becomes a hero. Job done.

And now tens of thousands of innocent people have lost their lives as collateral and a territory utterly devastated beyond any kind of recognition.

You don't rape, torture and mutilate women, take hostages and murder youngsters at a dance festival in the belief there's going to be a lightweight response that lasts no "more than a few weeks". Hamas calculated this.

There's dozens of other threads on which you can discuss what you think of Israel's actions I was responding to your query as to why the thread has moved on to talk about "Israel being evil" I had no intention of derailing the thread
BTW perhaps you'd like to start a thread about how you DO defeat monsters if you have all the answers?
No I wouldn't like to start a thread on it I'm not qualified in armed conflict and never suggested I had all the answers. I do believe countries such as the US have offered their expertise to the IDF on how to target terrorists in such built up areas but it was declined

Will RTFT after work, just on lunch now.
I have no sympathy for Hamas. I know they deliberately enjoyed murdering civilians, including women and children, on October 7th and in the later Jerusalem bus stop attack.

I don’t think Sinwar knew the full extent of what Israel’s response would be to the massacres on October 7th. I don’t think everyone expected the retaliation to last more than a few weeks. I don’t think everyone expected 28,000 civilian casualties by Valentines Day 2024, with over half of them women and children. I don’t think everyone expected the worst humanitarian crisis reported by veteran aid workers as the worst in their careers and currently in the world right now. I think most of us expected IDF to be both more effective and cause fewer civilian deaths in their campaign against Hamas. I certainly did not expect things to get so bad that they would be taken to court accused of genocide! Thinking that was viewed as paranoid antisemitism to most of us at the start of the war.

I think Sinwar admitting some of the consequences were unintended, doesn’t mean that he is not responsible for those unintended consequences.
If I’m cutting down a tree and it falls on me, I’m still responsible even though I didn’t know the tree would fall on me, and certainly didn’t intend for that to happen.

Humdingery they don't even hide it do they?

"Hamas are an illegal terrorist organisation"

Not according to the UN they're not 🙃 They consider them a perfectly legitimate organisation

There's dozens of other threads on which you can discuss what you think of Israel's actions. This one was set up by the OP to discuss Sinwar and his comments. People constantly try to turn each thread into the same thing, even the one about Israeli hostages in Gaza.

If we tried to do this in those other threads we'd be told not to derail!

BTW perhaps you'd like to start a thread about how you DO defeat monsters if you have all the answers?

@Dulra i suggest you educate yourself about the Saudi Yemen conflict and the displaced people/murdered children. It’s not what aboutery it’s a genuine question. I’m not seeking to minimise what the IDF are doing and I’ve said upthread I think they are shouting themselves in the foot to some extent.

We'll have to disagree on the double standard. There is no current situation similar at the moment. As I said Palestinian lives are at risk now, action has to be taken now so there is urgency to come to some kind of ceasefire. I also find it very patronising to query why people are posting on this and not starting threads about every other human rights violation also occurring. I am not sure what this whataboutery adds to this debate? The only reason I can see for it is to deflect and try to minimise what the IDF are doing

Learning to live peacefully with your neighbours is so important. No one has total possession of anything. You come with nothing and you die with nothing.

@Dulra who is trying to shut anyone up? But you do realise there are other countries doing similar if not worse yet there are not millions of threads on that? I’ve no skin in this game - I’m appalled at it all but I’m equally appalled at the double standards this conflict has exposed and as to why it is a potential election issue in a country which stands firm with our allies.

If you think this report it to mumsnet and they will delete it if they agree.
Please address this. Thanks - who is this directed to?