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Conflict in the Middle East
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Terrorist leader speaks out

209 replies

Peggysoonerthanlater · 15/02/2024 11:49

Now you have it for the horse's mouth -

Yahya Sinwar: Hamas leader in Gaza didn't expect consequences of 7 October attack to be 'this dangerous', says friend

Updated Wed, 14 February 2024 at 10:02 pm GMT

The top Hamas leader in Gaza, Yahya Sinwar, was one of the main planners of the 7 October attack on Israel but did not expect the consequences to become "this dangerous", a friend has told Sky News.
Esmat Mansour (who has been in prison with Sinwar) said last year's cross-border raid was supposed to be a strategic operation designed to lift the Israeli siege on the territory, release Sinwar's friends from prison, and make him a "leader of the Palestinian people".
But the calculations "didn't go as planned", the reaction of the Israelis was "uncontrolled, without any justification", and "now we have this result", he explained.
"He [Sinwar] didn't expect the operation to make things this complicated and to go as far as it did and become this dangerous. And [it] gave Israel all the reasons and excuses to break all the rules."
Speaking from Ramallah in the West Bank, Mansour said: "I think he was one of the main people behind this operation."
He claimed that if Sinwar knew what the consequences of the assault would be, he "would never have planned an operation this way".
Mansour, who has been in prison with Sinwar, said the Hamas leader had "wanted to make a change".
According to his ex-fellow inmate, Sinwar "tried several times to negotiate with the Palestinian Authority, to make a good relationship with Egypt, and he tried to provoke Israel to lift the siege on Gaza".
"After all these efforts, he didn't succeed. After that, he had to make a strategic change to [do] a huge operation like this. A big part of it was thought up by Sinwar."
Hamas killed 1,200 people, mostly civilians, in its raid on Israel last October and took around 250 others hostage.
The attack led to retaliatory Israeli strikes on Gaza that have killed at least 28,576 Palestinians, including mostly women and children, according to the Hamas-run health ministry.
The Israeli military claims it has killed or captured 8,000-9,000 Hamas fighters since 7 October.

From Sky News

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SummerFeverVenice · 17/02/2024 11:39

mollyfolk · 16/02/2024 22:39

Syria (96.5 deaths per day), Sudan (51.6), Iraq (50.8), Ukraine (43.9) Afghanistan (23.8) and Yemen (15.8)

Gaza is at 250 deaths per day. Civilian proportion of deaths is higher than the average in all world conflicts in second half of 20th century.

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These are great examples mollyfolk and also drawn from the Middle East.

Syria, Sudan, Yemen and Iraq was fighting Daesh, aka ISIS, which were/are similarly terrorists embedded in the civilian population especially within urban areas.

Afghanistan was fighting Taliban and Al Qaeda who were/are also terrorists embedded within the civilian population, although it was both rural and urban.
(Taliban was briefly an ally against Daesh)

Auvergne63 · 17/02/2024 09:32

Peggysoonerthanlater · 16/02/2024 22:51

None of the conflicts you mention involves a terrorist group that is 'dug in' among a civilian population in a small geographical area.

The only similar situation was the Vietnam War where the Vietcong engaged in 'tunnel warfare', but that was conducted over a wide area.

You need to compare like with like, and unfortunately Gaza is a unique situation.

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The Vietnam war? The war which the USA lost? Great example of why fighting terrorists in tunnels does not work.

Auvergne63 · 17/02/2024 09:28

Peggysoonerthanlater · 16/02/2024 23:08

@Dulra "I'm afraid it won't work like that, bit of a conflict of interest."

Please stop stating your opinion as if it was fact. Unless you have in-depth knowledge of the process I think you need to stop speculating about what might or might not happen.

The only alternative is to have some kind of an observer group there, which raises a load load of logistical problems not least, risk to life.

As it is, Israel has already de-classified many military documents to submit to the ICJ and can, no doubt, provide more.

Once again, the irony!

Auvergne63 · 17/02/2024 09:25

Peggysoonerthanlater · 16/02/2024 22:41

The American Defence Secretary isn't in Gaza so he's hardly in a position to comment is he?

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Neither are you, but you still voice your opinion.
In fact, he will know more than you and I about what is happening there, don't you think?

Original poster
Peggysoonerthanlater · 17/02/2024 06:53

Zuve · 17/02/2024 06:48

Men cause all the wars. What's wrong with them

Hey ! Don't give the guys a hard time. The ladies have chalked up some conflicts.

The most famous Russian Empress, Catherine The Great, usurped the throne from her own husband (who was eventually killed), and led furious wars with Crimean Khanate and Ottoman Empire through all her reign. She severely suppressed a few peasant riots within the country and crushed Poland which was later partitioned.

Elizabeth of Russia usurped the throne during the military coup from the young Tzar Ivan VI (who was only one year old) and led the country during two major European wars: War of Austrian Succession and Seven Years’ War.

Isabella of France, Queen of England, dethroned and executed her own husband, King Edward II, in close collaboration with her lover.

Catherine de Medici is considered to be among the main organizers of St. Bartholomew’s day massacre; she was also one of the inspirers of the Religious Wars in France.

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Zuve · 17/02/2024 06:48

Men cause all the wars. What's wrong with them

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stomachamelon · 17/02/2024 05:34

@DistingusedSocialCommentator fantastic post.

etmoiandme · 17/02/2024 01:26

SummerFeverVenice · 16/02/2024 21:22

I don’t think Sinwar knew the full extent of what Israel’s response would be to the massacres on October 7th.

“Sorry, not buying this. He, and they, didn’t just know, they planned it out to the letter and the day!”

”As expected, Netanyahu dives headfirst into the trap.”

@etmoiandme you have too high an opinion of Hamas’ and too low of an opinion of Israel. Hamas are not evil geniuses and Nethanyu is not their predictably stupid sock puppet despite your creative fiction to that effect.

”….a lightweight response that lasts no "more than a few weeks”

If a few weeks is a lightweight response then what was October 7th by your perverse logic as it was one day of terror attacks? Feather weight?! I see what you are doing, and you can FO with that minimising shit.

It is all horrific and devastating: the one day of October 7th and the months of destruction in Gaza. I don’t think it’s awful to have expected a high tech, highly trained military to have been more efficient and effective in eliminating Hamas, with fewer civilian deaths.

WTF am I minimising? Can barely make any sense out your hysterical post. Are you not able to have a discussion without telling folk to fuck off?

Original poster
Peggysoonerthanlater · 17/02/2024 00:12

DistingusedSocialCommentator · 17/02/2024 00:09

Thank you

IMO, Hezbohla have already tasted IDF treatment when they blew up a tank I think and too a couple of IDF soldiers hostage. IDG raised to the ground areas where they lived, especially top brass and they new 5 star living

In my judgement, Hamas is seen by Irans top brass as gun fodder and brainless moron that could not organise a piss-up in an off licence.

Incredibly, the oct 7th attacks were a massive success and an unexpected one.
The rape and lilling of babies, and beheading I guess as a surprise to the hamas/irna lot but but its built up of many crack-pots, some more cracked than others and possibly high on coke and we all know what happened oct 7th

All of the Hamas lot, inc Hezbhola leaders are in hiding and negating on a skin-saving exercise

Hamas/Irans top brass do not care one bit about the ordinary people in Gaza, its self-interest. Self-rule for Gaza, they had it when IDF left but as like any country, corruption, and nepotism always come out on top and everyone else last.

Egypt is aware how mad the crackpots in Hamas are and this is why they won't let the people in

The Israreli PM and the West Bank settlers have their own agendas and always add fuel to the flames

As always, the innocent majority lose out because of politics where a few want everthitng ther own way along with status and fuck the rest

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A brilliant summation !

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DistingusedSocialCommentator · 17/02/2024 00:09

Peggysoonerthanlater · 16/02/2024 23:53

@DistingusedSocialCommentator
What happened IMO is not exactly what Hamas expected, but what Iran expected.
They (Hamas + Iran) expected Israel to do just what it actually did…

But they (Hamas) also expected Hezbollah to come to their aid by attacking from the north.

They (Hamas) did not expect Iran to throw them under the bus, and to have to bear the full burden of Israel’s wrath.

They did not expect Israel to recruit 320,000 reservists within a couple of days and get to the point of circulating these and other reservists so the economy does not grind to a standstill, while still maintaining an offensive initiative in Gaza while placing a huge force to make Hezbollah (and Iran) crap themselves

They (Iran) did not anticipate Biden’s “Don’t” speech * with such a quick deployment of two aircraft carriers aimed at nothing but physically exterminating the Iranian garrison in Syria.

*And we stand ready to move in additional assets as needed. Let me say again — to any country, any organization, anyone thinking of taking advantage of this situation, I have one word: Don't. Don't. Our hearts may be broken, but our resolve is clear.

Thank you

IMO, Hezbohla have already tasted IDF treatment when they blew up a tank I think and too a couple of IDF soldiers hostage. IDG raised to the ground areas where they lived, especially top brass and they new 5 star living

In my judgement, Hamas is seen by Irans top brass as gun fodder and brainless moron that could not organise a piss-up in an off licence.

Incredibly, the oct 7th attacks were a massive success and an unexpected one.
The rape and lilling of babies, and beheading I guess as a surprise to the hamas/irna lot but but its built up of many crack-pots, some more cracked than others and possibly high on coke and we all know what happened oct 7th

All of the Hamas lot, inc Hezbhola leaders are in hiding and negating on a skin-saving exercise

Hamas/Irans top brass do not care one bit about the ordinary people in Gaza, its self-interest. Self-rule for Gaza, they had it when IDF left but as like any country, corruption, and nepotism always come out on top and everyone else last.

Egypt is aware how mad the crackpots in Hamas are and this is why they won't let the people in

The Israreli PM and the West Bank settlers have their own agendas and always add fuel to the flames

As always, the innocent majority lose out because of politics where a few want everthitng ther own way along with status and fuck the rest

Original poster
Peggysoonerthanlater · 16/02/2024 23:53

@DistingusedSocialCommentator
What happened IMO is not exactly what Hamas expected, but what Iran expected.
They (Hamas + Iran) expected Israel to do just what it actually did…

But they (Hamas) also expected Hezbollah to come to their aid by attacking from the north.

They (Hamas) did not expect Iran to throw them under the bus, and to have to bear the full burden of Israel’s wrath.

They did not expect Israel to recruit 320,000 reservists within a couple of days and get to the point of circulating these and other reservists so the economy does not grind to a standstill, while still maintaining an offensive initiative in Gaza while placing a huge force to make Hezbollah (and Iran) crap themselves

They (Iran) did not anticipate Biden’s “Don’t” speech * with such a quick deployment of two aircraft carriers aimed at nothing but physically exterminating the Iranian garrison in Syria.

*And we stand ready to move in additional assets as needed. Let me say again — to any country, any organization, anyone thinking of taking advantage of this situation, I have one word: Don't. Don't. Our hearts may be broken, but our resolve is clear.

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DistingusedSocialCommentator · 16/02/2024 23:43

Peggysoonerthanlater · 16/02/2024 23:38

@DistingusedSocialCommentator "What is stopping the coward that is hiding in bunkers from surrendering and releasing all the hostages now?"

Probably waiting on instructions from their masters in Qatar.

I suspect they need them for "leverage" but to what end I couldn't speculate.

I'll tell you why they/Hammas coeards are still holding on the the poor hostages - its to save th leaders skins in Gaza and those that are now hiding in the basements of 5 star hotels

Several times over the last ten years or so, Hamas and Hezbolz having attacked the people of Israel so make ceasefire agreements when their top leaders/cowards are take out by IDF ad or Mossad.

Original poster
Peggysoonerthanlater · 16/02/2024 23:38

@DistingusedSocialCommentator "What is stopping the coward that is hiding in bunkers from surrendering and releasing all the hostages now?"

Probably waiting on instructions from their masters in Qatar.

I suspect they need them for "leverage" but to what end I couldn't speculate.

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DistingusedSocialCommentator · 16/02/2024 23:22

total BS
He knew what would happe

they said this many years ago when they killed a couple of IDF troops and kidnapped to and IDF bombed them hard

Lets give the half a brain moron the benefit of the doubt and he "dod not know" the response would be like that.

What is stopping the coward that is hiding in bunkers from surrendering and releasing all the hostages now?

Dulra · 16/02/2024 23:17

Peggysoonerthanlater · 16/02/2024 23:08

@Dulra "I'm afraid it won't work like that, bit of a conflict of interest."

Please stop stating your opinion as if it was fact. Unless you have in-depth knowledge of the process I think you need to stop speculating about what might or might not happen.

The only alternative is to have some kind of an observer group there, which raises a load load of logistical problems not least, risk to life.

As it is, Israel has already de-classified many military documents to submit to the ICJ and can, no doubt, provide more.

The only alternative is to have some kind of an observer group there, which raises a load load of logistical problems not least, risk to life.
can't see the IDF allowing this

As it is, Israel has already de-classified many military documents to submit to the ICJ and can, no doubt, provide more.
I'm sure they'll have to

Right I'll say no more. You seem very clued in on armed conflict and how war crimes and potential genocide are investigated so I'll bow out.

Original poster
Peggysoonerthanlater · 16/02/2024 23:08

@Dulra "I'm afraid it won't work like that, bit of a conflict of interest."

Please stop stating your opinion as if it was fact. Unless you have in-depth knowledge of the process I think you need to stop speculating about what might or might not happen.

The only alternative is to have some kind of an observer group there, which raises a load load of logistical problems not least, risk to life.

As it is, Israel has already de-classified many military documents to submit to the ICJ and can, no doubt, provide more.

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Dulra · 16/02/2024 22:59

Peggysoonerthanlater · 16/02/2024 22:55

"So with that logic only the IDF will be able to determine whether they are trying to limit civilian casualties?"

Seeing as they are the only military there, then yes.

"Bit convenient"

I'm not sure what that means but if you want to debate with me please don't get sarcastic.

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It's convenient that in your opinion the only people that can investigate whether they are trying to limit civilian casualties is the IDF so they'll be investigating themselves? I'm afraid it won't work like that, bit of a conflict of interest.

Original poster
Peggysoonerthanlater · 16/02/2024 22:55

Dulra · 16/02/2024 22:51

So with that logic only the IDF will be able to determine whether they are trying to limit civilian casualties? Bit convenient

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"So with that logic only the IDF will be able to determine whether they are trying to limit civilian casualties?"

Seeing as they are the only military there, then yes.

"Bit convenient"

I'm not sure what that means but if you want to debate with me please don't get sarcastic.

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Original poster
Peggysoonerthanlater · 16/02/2024 22:51

mollyfolk · 16/02/2024 22:39

Syria (96.5 deaths per day), Sudan (51.6), Iraq (50.8), Ukraine (43.9) Afghanistan (23.8) and Yemen (15.8)

Gaza is at 250 deaths per day. Civilian proportion of deaths is higher than the average in all world conflicts in second half of 20th century.

Edited
Show quote history

None of the conflicts you mention involves a terrorist group that is 'dug in' among a civilian population in a small geographical area.

The only similar situation was the Vietnam War where the Vietcong engaged in 'tunnel warfare', but that was conducted over a wide area.

You need to compare like with like, and unfortunately Gaza is a unique situation.

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Dulra · 16/02/2024 22:51

Peggysoonerthanlater · 16/02/2024 22:41

The American Defence Secretary isn't in Gaza so he's hardly in a position to comment is he?

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So with that logic only the IDF will be able to determine whether they are trying to limit civilian casualties? Bit convenient

Dulra · 16/02/2024 22:49

Peggysoonerthanlater · 16/02/2024 22:34

What has this to do with the original post?

We were discussing Sinwar/Hamas' comments and their credibility.

Peoples' 'humanity' or lack of it are not up for discussion neither is any alleged 'genocide'.

There are plenty of threads where you can voice your opinions but this isn't one of them, so just stop trying to derail.

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Pretty sure they were responding to Hiddenmnetter post.

Original poster
Peggysoonerthanlater · 16/02/2024 22:41

mollyfolk · 16/02/2024 22:36

Why do you think the IDF could do this was far fewer civilian deaths?

the question now is who doesn’t think that the IDF could do this with fewer civilian deaths? Only the Israeli authorities and their supporters really. The American defence secretary seems to think it is entirely possible. It’s hardly an outlandish view at this point.

The American Defence Secretary isn't in Gaza so he's hardly in a position to comment is he?

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mollyfolk · 16/02/2024 22:39

Peggysoonerthanlater · 16/02/2024 22:36

Examples please.

Show quote history

Syria (96.5 deaths per day), Sudan (51.6), Iraq (50.8), Ukraine (43.9) Afghanistan (23.8) and Yemen (15.8)

Gaza is at 250 deaths per day. Civilian proportion of deaths is higher than the average in all world conflicts in second half of 20th century.