URNWA - Hamas investigation. Thread 2

Same as the poor man tied to the front of the IDF jeep and used as a human shield. He was going for a little spin the long way around to hospital, according to some delusional people around here.

Some people will excuse any kind of terrible behaviour.

No way!!
Although I heard similar insanity with Shani Louk's body too. Fucking delusional idiots.

The link is to a documentary based on the video footage of the beeri massacre from security cameras and the terrorists' gopros. In it, an unrwa staff member is clearly identified by name who is attacking the kibbutz. It does not say whether he survived or not.

BTW, the woman in the photo in the link is being led off to be executed by Hamas.

https://www.mako.co.il/mako-vod-keshet/uvda-2024/VOD-55bec7941790291026.htm

No, that's not true. Unrwa definition is not contingent on Israel recognising a Palestinian state.
East Jerusalem residents are entitled to israeli citizenship BTW.

I recall it was one UNRWA guy and he too was killed on Oct 7th by Hamas.

He was identified by his vehicle on camera being matched to photos of it on his SM.

The footage showing him stopping and putting some apparently lifeless or unconscious Israelis in his jeep and then collecting their phones before driving off was released hastily.

Then it all went quiet when they discovered he was also killed on Oct 7th because Hamas killed him and anyone else still alive by firing on the jeep.

Really on camera? That's awful.

Were those individuals arrested?

It hasn’t been recognised by the UNSC. Most of its members contend that Palestine can only be recognised as a state through bilateral negotiations with Israel. As long as Israel continues to refuse to recognise Palestine, then that’s a veto on the status of Palestine as a recognised state.

The UNGA has voted to recognise Palestine as a state, but the UNSC has yet to pass this as a binding resolution.

This is why there is a ‘two state solution’ that has never been agreed on.

Every Palestinian in West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem would stop being a refugee if Israel recognised the existence of Palestine as a state. However, this would mean agreeing to borders, admitting their occupation is illegal, and giving up all that tax revenue they collect from Palestinians.

Yes, although I do remember someone on here saying the UNRWA staff could have been taking the body -he was loading into the truck - to hospital!

The 9 were fired due to being suspected of involvement, which has yet to be proven. So they were suspected and fired, both are true.

Being fired due to suspicion isn’t proof of involvement, it was announced as a precautionary measure while investigations continued. A spokesperson’s off the cuff opinion as to likelihood of involvement prior to investigations being completed, ie how suspicious are you? is just an opinion and also not proof of involvement.

Upthread, I did list possible (not necessarily innocent) scenarios that would fall under the legal definition of “criminal involvement”, to include lending a motorcycle to a mate and either knowing or not knowing that mate was a Hamas terrorist who then rode it into Israel on Oct 7th for murder, rape and kidnapping.

I agree I mistakenly thought this guy was 1 of the original 9, you corrected me and so that makes him 1 of 10 suspected. He was suspended months ago due to being suspected of Hamas political affiliation, while the other 9 UNRWA employees were fired. So him plus 9= 10 which makes him 1 of 10 suspected UNRWA employees now proven to be 1 of 32,000 that was Hamas.

In the Beeri massacre you see unrwa staff clearly caught on camera

So what has Ireland recognised then? A unicorn?

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice
Ok so 1 of 10 suspected then has been proven. It’s hard to keep track of who is who amongst the various allegstions. Btw, the “Highly likely” was a spokespersons opinion and isn’t proof of Hamas involvement.

No, Fathi al Sharif was not one of the 9. You seem to be confused.
There were 9 employees of UNRWA fired because they may be, were likely, highly likely involved in the attacks of October 7th. Fathi al- Sharif was in Lebanon so could not maybe, likely, highly likely involved in the attacks.

The 9 weren’t suspected they were fired as you stated upthread when you tried to make up innocent scenarios of why they would have been fired.

Do you have any links to support this
“Almost none of them are refugees by International standards.
40% are citizens of Jordan.
40% are in the West Bank and Gaza, somewhere they consider to be Palestine and indeed engage in efforts to have it recognised.
The rest are in Lebanon and Syria of which 2/3 have left and become citizens of other countries.”

??

There is no Palestinian state, almost every Palestinian in the West Bank and Gaza is technically stateless. There are a few who are Israeli citizens that have been forced to move there by intermarriage since Israel refuses residency permits if an Israeli citizen marries a Palestinian. The children of such unions also are barred from inheriting Israeli citizenship. Their identity and travel documents show their ethnicity and refugee status, not their citizenship.

@Alwayslookonthe
Ok so 1 of 10 suspected then has been proven. It’s hard to keep track of who is who amongst the various allegstions. Btw, the “Highly likely” was a spokespersons opinion and isn’t proof of Hamas involvement.

“It should be dismantled because UNRWA is the ideological backbone that gives birth decade after decade, generation after generation to the idea of return.”

I think you will find that the ‘ideological backbone’ to the voluntary right of return is not in UNRWA but in International Human Rights:

The right of persons to leave and to return to their country is the basic tenet underling voluntary repatriation. It is incorporated in international human rights instruments:
The 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights at Article 13 (2),

The 1950 European conventions for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental freedoms at Article 2,

The 1965 International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination at Article 5,

The 1976 International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights at Article 12.

You will find you are mistaken if you think dismantling UNRWA will result in the right of return dissolving:
Extract from a Press release from the UN on World Refugee Day
Right of return of Palestinian refugees must be prioritised over political considerations: UN experts
21 June 2023

”Since 1948, both the General Assembly and the Security Council have consistently called upon Israel to facilitate the return of Palestinian refugees and provide reparations. Despite these repeated appeals, Palestinian refugees have been systematically denied of their right to return and forced to live in exile under precarious and vulnerable conditions outside the borders of Palestine. The right of return constitutes a fundamental pillar of the Palestinian people's right to self-determination. The fragmentation of the Palestinian people, both geographically and politically, through administrative methods of control based on residency and race, tantamount to apartheid, has obstructed the realisation of the right to return and self-determination. These practices serve the settler-colonial project pursued by Israel.”
https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2023/06/right-return-palestinian-refugees-must-be-prioritised-over-political

Palestinians in WB and gaza can get Palestinian citizenship and a state of palestine passport. Ergo they are not refugees by definition (unless Palestinian).

I’m not sure your figures are correct in respect to Jordan. The only Palestinian refugees that Jordan gave citizenship to were the ones originally displaced from the 1948 Nakba into the West Bank which Jordan held until 1967. After 1988, a further nationality law barred even these Palestinian refugees who had actually applied for and gotten citizenship from passing their Jordanian citizenship on to their descendants.

Palestinian refugees first displaced into Gaza in 1948 and then fled to West Bank or Jordan post 1954 also did not get Jordanian citizenship because Gaza was under Egyptian administration and even today their descendants in Jordan are referred to as “Gazans.”

In addition, every Palestinian refugee arriving in Jordan from 1967 to the present and their descendants have been barred from Jordanian citizenship.

So I find it hard to believe that ‘almost all’ Palestinian refugees in Jordan have Jordanian citizenship.

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice
9 suspected? The 9 were fired. Don’t you remember that you stated that fact up thread just before you made up scenarios of what they could be fired for (lending a terrorist a motorbike).
I then highlighted that UN spokesman Farhan Haq acknowledged that the 9 were highly likely part of the attacks. Fathi al-Sharif was not part of the 9, but nice try in trying incorporate him as such.

However, it doesn’t matter whether all of UNRWA is part of or sympathetic to Hamas. That is not why it should be defunded/dismantled
It should be dismantled because UNRWA is the ideological backbone that gives birth decade after decade, generation after generation to the idea of return. It keeps the Palestinian forever war going against the Jews being sovereign in any part of the land.
It counts 5.9 million refugees.
It has not settled a single refugee in it’s history.
Almost none of them are refugees by International standards.
40% are citizens of Jordan.
40% are in the West Bank and Gaza, somewhere they consider to be Palestine and indeed engage in efforts to have it recognised.
The rest are in Lebanon and Syria of which 2/3 have left and become citizens of other countries.
UNRWA has registered millions of people as refugees over the decades who do not meet the basic criteria applied to EVERY other group of refugees in the world. It seeks not to settle refugees but in registering millions of refugees its desire is to keep the 1948 war going.
Had the rest of the world been recognised as refugees in the same way as UNRWA does for the Palestinians the (relative) peace that has marked much of the world since WWII would have been replaced by constant war.
This is the reason why UNRWA should be dismantled/ defunded.

Exactly. Once a refugee has the protection of another country through citizenship they are no longer considered a refugee, I.e. in need of international protection. Unless Palestinian

As unrwa later says, that's not unrwa's fault but they also aren't exactly open about it.

Apparently unrwa can't be merged with unhcr due to budget lines???

There is evidence IDF has a yet to be identified Hamas spy in its midst:

”Hamas may have used a spy to scout out an IDF base on the Gaza border while planning its October 7 assault on southern Israel, an Israeli intelligence source told The Guardian, basing himself on a map recovered after the fighting.”

”The IDF has noted in press briefings that Hamas possessed intelligence about the location of the homes of the security chiefs in the different kibbutzim and aimed to strike at them at the start of each attack.”- this is the kind of secure information that only members of the IDF would have.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-05/ty-article/hamas-may-have-used-spy-to-scout-idf-base-before-oct-7-attack-report-says/0000018c-3980-de12-a3af-3bcdbc260000

But IDF isn’t an arm of Hamas, either now is it? Despite clear evidence that insider knowledge from an unidentified Hamas spy in the IDF was used to plan the Oct 7th attack.

Ok, so 1 in 32,000 employees was a member of Hamas and this was discovered months after he’d been suspended at the time of his death.

Why are you suprised Lazarini did not know? Do you honestly think that Lazzarini personally knows all 32,000 of his subordinates? Add a normal organisations’ turnover rate, and that 32,000 is not a fixed pool of people as several hundred employees would be hired or leaving employment daily. He ordered the investigation that identified the 9 suspected, of which 1 is now known. It is ridiculous to imply he has been purposefully hiring or harbouring Hamas.

You do know that UNRWA sends the name & details of every potential employee to the Israeli government prior to hiring as part of their background checks? And each employee has their background check renewed annually? And that UNRWA acts on any information from Israel? This process was put into place in 2006.

This is a very robust procedure thanks to Israeli intelligence being so good and it is a huge success story to have had only 9 suspected and of these, only 1 confirmed so far to be Hamas out of 32,000 employees.

It is just unfortunate that it is being misused to attack UNRWA as an organisation. Anyone operating in the OPT will accidentally hire a terrorist or hire someone who is later radicalised now and then. Even governments with the best intelligence (and Israel is no exception) have accidentally hired spies from time to time. Like the recent case of the British security guard at the U.K. Embassy in Berlin who sold secrets to Russia. Would you similarly act shocked that the then Foreign Secretary, James Cleverly, did not know his department had hired a spy for Putin’s Russia? And conclude that the entire U.K. FCDO is riddled with Putin’s agents such that it is an arm of Russia?

Apply some common sense please.