URNWA - Hamas investigation. Thread 2

In addition, the report notes Israel’s dislike towards the UNRWA, two sources familiar with it told the Journal. “There is a specific section that mentions how Israeli bias serves to mischaracterize much of their assessments on UNRWA and says this has resulted in distortions,” one source reportedly said.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/us-intelligence-unrwa-hamas

I've seen your posting too. Your viewpoint is clear. You'll learn nothing new from me that hasn't been said many times already here.

Interesting you particularly hone into the 2nd post only.

So, with the first post - do I take it your silence is an acceptance that the politician’s views are reasonable?

With regard to playing politics with people’s lives- I can’t think of another situation where over 11,000 children (that we know of so far) have been killed in the space of 4 months, and that is being supported and aided by a minority of powerful western democracies who have vetoed a UN backed ceasefire?

The last time I saw such horrific images was from the Yemen- and is this what Israel wants to align with?

Thanks for clarifying. I agree that there are probably lots of things we would agree on.

I think your view differs from mine but I expect there are many things we agree on.
I am in the UK, I am fortunately safe where I am, many people around the world are not so lucky.
I am unhappy about my fellow citizens being made to feel unsafe, I have more ability to influence that than I have to change the rest of the world.
I will start here, within my own small sphere of influence.

Apologies @quantumbutterfly I misread what you wrote. It wasn't intentional.

Are you saying I have extreme viewpoints?

@Humdingerydoo thank you

Sometimes we are drawn into arguments rather than discussions here, I've learned a lot by lurking as I'm sure others have too and have noticed some common ground being reached on these boards between 'opposing' viewpoints.
There's a glimmer of compromise.

Extreme and extremist are different words. Stop putting words in other people's mouths

Are you accusing me of having extremist viewpoints?

@inkworks273 I've noticed your posts.

As the song goes 'it's not always rainbows and butterflies but compromise that moves us along'. The world is not perfect (though that 's a subjective judgement anyway) , not even ok (subjectively). We work with what we have.

I note that extreme viewpoints are resistant to compromise.

That makes it ok then.

Seriously? Where the hell have you been for the last...well forever basically.

Damn! Countries playing politics with peoples lives is pretty much the norm all over the world.

Can’t believe some countries are playing politics at the expense of people’s lives? And for what purpose? To protect Netanyahu’s government?

Canadian defence minister- defunding UNRWA dreadful political decision, and Netanyahu’s actions hurting Israel.

From a tweet by Arnaud Bertrand in X embedded below:

“This is incredible. Rob Oliphant, whose job is to defend Canada's foreign policy in Parliament, got recorded in a private phone call admitting how disgusting Canada's de-funding of UNRWA is, and that he does believe Israel is committing genocide.
cbc.ca/news/politics/…

Here what he said on the leaked recording of the call:

"When I read that we were pausing money to UNRWA — I'm going to be very clear — it was political. And I don't just mean domestic politics. It has to do with our allies. I thought it was the wrong decision."

In short: nothing to do with the allegations against UNRWA (which to this day are still unproven), everything to do with the US pressuring Canada to de-fund it.

Oliphant also said on the call that, even if the Israeli allegation is true, he doesn't agree with the Trudeau government's response: "You don't stop aid to Gaza because of 12 or 13 employees out of 13,000. It drives me crazy. It is opportunistic, it is unfair, and it is maligning the operation of a UN organization that is doing, not perfect work — there's no organization that's made of human beings that's perfect, UNRWA has its faults. But it is the best we have for education, for medical care, for food, all of those things.

My heart falls down in my body. My heart hurts, because the only way to get that aid there is UNRWA.

We can't have 200 trucks a day. We need 800 trucks a day. We need more entry points. We need water access from the Mediterranean. And we need to push on those points. But we also need UNRWA, which is the only body that has the infrastructure to deliver the aid."

Oliphant said that any decision to divert UNRWA aid to other channels likely would be symbolic, because "the reality is that UNICEF or World Food Program or other agencies are going to have to use the same people that work for UNRWA. It's political and it's driving me crazy."

He added: "I will defend UNRWA forever. Their work in Lebanon, their work in Jordan, I've been there, I've been to the refugee camps. I've examined the curriculum that people have gone crazy about, saying it's antisemitic. I don't believe it is. I think UNRWA is maligned every day."

On the call he also said he does believe Israel is committing "genocidal activity": "Do I believe there's genocidal activity on the part of Israel? Probably yes, from what I have seen."

He says Netanyahu is hurting not only Gaza but Israel too: "Netanyahu is hurting Israel. Not only killing Gazans, but hurting Israel. So for the love of Israel, tell him to stop."

Lastly he said that Israel — not other countries — should be made to pay the cost of the war: "Israel needs to pay for rebuilding the country it destroyed. I don't want to pay for that," he said, before acknowledging that Canada likely will be called on to contribute something, along with Gulf Arab nations...”

https://x.com/rnaudbertrand/status/1758166164113621236?s=46

Can you explain what the argument is then?

No one wants to support any aid agency that is supporting terrorism, but there is a number of internal and independent investigations now underway to find out what is the extent, if any, infiltration of Hamas in UNWRA. I am sure most people at this stage understand that ceasing UNWRAS humanitarian work and their funding is a catastrophic decision with unspeakable consequences. There is no other option for distributing aid so UNWRA it is. Who genuinely would deny starving people food? I and no one else on these threads can say for definite what is true and what it is not but I am sure we can all agree that humanitarian aid cannot stop while we find out.

No.

In an area 25 miles long by approx 7 miles wide with an estimated several hundred kilometers of tunnels the IDF found one in the general area of an aid organisation building and therefore starving and bombing the civilian population is justified?

Have I understood the argument in defence of genocide correctly?

Besides Humerdingeryoo, hearing heavy equipment doesn’t mean you can use mystical powers to go oh that is definitely a tunnel being dug three klicks north of here. And then lick your finger and test the wind, and go, oh yes and they are at exactly 45metres deep. It’s underground.

Not to the same extent as Hamas because Hezbollah are in Lebanon. That isn’t part of Israel, nor does Israel occupy it, it is a foreign, sovereign nation. Israel can’t fly surveillance drones over them to see what they are doing.

In addition, there is no blockade on Hezbollah, so they can bring in what ever tunnelling equipment they want to. Hamas cannot. Tunnel borers are far too big to smuggle in, even in pieces.

You don't think Hezbollah needed secrecy to build their tunnels? You think they were ok with Israel knowing exactly where they are? 🥴 That would defeat the whole purpose of having tunnels, which is so they can hide from the IDF

Yes because in Lebanon there is no blockade and no need for secrecy.

So did Hamas dig tunnels in a different way to how Hezbollah have been digging tunnels? Because that could be heard by Israelis living by the border, so not even directly on top of the tunnels.

If people were above the new Tube tunnels while they were being dug out, they might hear the heavy tunnel boring going on if they are home, in the quiet hours of the night, if tunnelling were not happening during business hours. But Tube tunnels are ten times the size of the Hamas tunnels and heavy boring machines are used. You would not hear a human sized tunnel being dug by hand even if you laid on the floor with a stethoscope and listened all day long. Which is how Hamas dug their tunnels.

In addition, the Hamas tunnels only ran under the edge of a courtyard within the UN compound. What are the chances someone would even be there to hear when they are digging? Especially when there is city traffic noise all around during the work day.

No but I am sure that those who live or work in the buildings above the tube were only all too aware that tunnels were being dug out underneath them.