Standing up for Israel

@madderthanahatter I've just seen your post on another thread and I am assuming you are referring to my quoted post. Pretty poor form to take this to another thread if so, and in addition to misquote me and misrepresent what I said. I did not say that anyone asking Jewish posters for their views was antisemitic. I was objecting to the sudden barrage of quite aggressively worded demands from some posters on the previous page to others to justify their beliefs. I'd be grateful if you would retract what you have said. Thank you.

@Scirocco I'm so sorry you've had to go through this. It must have felt awful and upsetting. I hope you weren't alone and had support with you.

@EllaDisenchanted I'm also sorry for the experience your husband had.

@EllaDisenchanted sorry for your experiences.
It's not acceptable at all that your husband is made to feel the way he does in not being able to be openly Jewish. Part of me feels that don't let the horrible people win, but safety first and everyone needs to do what they feel is right for them.
your posts really do highlight to me why there is a need for a Jewish homeland.

Thank you, @0palfrootee

@Scirocco I'm sorry that happened to you. Easy to say but I really mean it.

I wasn't aiming my comment at you in particular- it seemed on the previous page that there was a sudden barrage of posters demanding people explain themselves. I thought it was out of order, especially as the implication seemed to be that anyone who supports Israel must also love Netanyahu and be in favour of killing loads of civilians- in fact it was more than implied. Moderate voices speaking out for Israel are dismissed and have their words twisted. This has happened to me more than once on here.

I don't know who is demanding that posters say they hate Hamas but it certainly hasn't been me. I take it as read that most people are against Hamas although a small number of posters sail pretty close to the wind in their comments about them - I know they're not the mainstream view though.

Thanks, @EllaDisenchanted - yes, I'm visibly Muslim (well, I wear hijab so people seem to guess from that). I've had friends seriously considering taking theirs off recently due to safety concerns.

I'm sorry your husband had that experience too. The UK (and other countries) has become so much less tolerant of diversity of faith and culture in recent years...

Am I right in guessing based on previous comments that you are visibly Muslim and wear a headscarf? Forgive me if I’m wrong , but if so, I often think that we have a lot of experiences in common with each other as visible women of faith, both positive and negative. I also wore a headscarf frequently when I lived in Manchester, (instead of a wig or hat) and it does make you stand out and leaves you open to antisemitism/islamophobia at times.
DH was recently briefly in the UK and wore a baseball cap as he wasn’t comfortable being visibly Jewish in public. It’s not easy.
I’m sorry for your experiences today and previously, it’s a horrible thing to go through. I think the Jewish posters on here truly do get how awful and upsetting it is 🫂

Not on here today. Today it was in person. I get this sort of thing quite a bit.

Some of it I've tried to justify/explain to myself as people being hurt and angry and not necessarily meaning what they say in that state of mind. But some of it is harder to do that with. The cold, calm people who are quite comfortable saying that to me with the same tone as one might describe getting pest control out. The young men who feel empowered to drive their cars around looking for anyone who might be Muslim to yell these things at (and to accelerate towards, etc).

If that is what 'standing with Israel' means to so many people, I suppose I was feeling like there's not much point anymore in trying to reach out if that's all I'm getting back. It did help to read that there are people on here for whom standing with Israel is standing with innocent civilians and looking for a path for peace without sharing the sorts of views posted in that video.

@LilaDidIt I watched it before I posted it.

@Scirocco that's awful. Surely not on here?

As someone who, despite that, has been told by multiple people that when they say they are standing with Israel that they consider me and people like me to be "subhuman scum" and similar phrases, and that I should be killed

@0palfrootee hardly demanding - I asked. As someone who has tried to show compassion and support for innocent civilians in both Israel and Palestine. As someone who, despite that, has been told by multiple people that when they say they are standing with Israel that they consider me and people like me to be "subhuman scum" and similar phrases, and that I should be killed - that people I cared about deserved to die horribly and I should join them. As someone hoping that I wasn't wrong when I've been saying that isn't what everyone means.

My confidence in the interfaith bridges I've tried to build and the efforts I've put in to trying to encourage people not to see each other as the enemy when I believed we mostly wanted the same things, was badly shaken after some events in real life today. I'm relieved that some people on here at least don't seem to share those views, but I don't think it's unreasonable, when that's the view of many people I've encountered, to question if I'd been wrong all along.

I would largely agree with your last paragraph. However I don't think it's unfair considering the hundreds of posts where anyone sympathising with Palestinians were demanded to make their stance wrt Hamas clear. Who do they think they are?

He is saying that calling Israel out for the killing of 30,000 (in Gaza alone) and the displacement of millions is "singling Israel out"? Which I presume is an indication of anti-Semitism? So if we care about the Jewish people we should turn a blind eye to genocide of another group?

And he's also bringing up "the river to the sea", which he believes is racist when Palestinians use it, though I presume he finds nothing racist about it being in the Likud party charter ("Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan river there will only be Israeli sovereignty.")

My views are broadly similar to those expressed by EllaD and DerniereChanson above. In fact I have expressed those views multiple times on MN (as have others) and had my words picked over and twisted then thrown back at me while accusing me of supporting genocide. Or sometimes just ignored.

Just who do certain posters think they are, coming on this thread and demanding several times that people who are Jewish or supportive of Israel's right to self-defence state their views? Unbelievable.

Lord Wolfson's speech in the House of Lords

www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/3GRo4lXDMv

@EllaDisenchanted I respect the way you have expressed your point of view. I stand with humanity, I think, as anything else is taking a side and furthers division. I read and cried over Primo Levi, visited Anne Frank's house and watched films concerning the holocaust. I have no doubt that Jewish people need Israel, and I found much to love about the energy, ingenuity and dedication present in the people and the land. I also find the situation of Palestinians tragic, and the continued expansion into occupied territories unjust. I also feel sad for the ancient Christian community in Jerusalem, Gaza and the WB, in the birthplace of Christianity being attacked and under siege at Christmas itself. I believe there will be no peace until all people there have equal rights and opportunities. I don't know how that is to be achieved, but it's imperative for everyone to find peace. Not peace kept by force of arms, but peace kept by justice and equality.

If you haven't watched it, I would actually recommend watching it. I didn't create it or post it, but I think it's a pretty accurate summary of some of the views I and people I know regularly encounter.

Really that’s awful 😣 he seems really bloodthirsty and it’s not in the interests of the hostages either. When will this end ?

That's new to me but I have asked on numerous occasions questions to Pro Israeli government posters which have always remained ( bar one poster) unanswered. Their silence speaks volume to me.

@Vakarian Do you support or do you condemn the atrocities of the Israeli government and IDF?

Well to be fair, this forum is to share opinions and to debate. If you don't want to do that, then this is not the place for you.
Firstly, I was brought up to have the courage of your convictions, meaning that if you stand for anything, you should be prepare to explain why; otherwise don't say anything. It isn't always easy to do, I will admit.
Finally, standing for Israel can mean many things, I guess. But if you stand for what the Israeli government is doing, then say it.

"I do not stand with Israel's Oct 7th 'revenge' or indeed its long-term settler policy, and I'm unequivocally pro-ceasefire, but it has to be a negotiation that is realistic (e.g. all hostages returned)." @LaDernièreChanson

The last deal that was on the table would have returned all the Israeli hostages. And it wasn't even calling for a permanent ceasefire which Israel won't countenance, just a truce with a view to working towards a permanent ceasefire.

But Netanyahu called it delusional and said he wanted "complete victory". So people continue to be slaughtered and the hostages stay where they are. It's so sad.

@Scirocco I stand with Israel as someone non-Israeli but Jewish, so with a vested interest in the long term survival of the world's only Jewish state. That's it. That's what being pro-Israel means to me. I want Israel and Israelis to have a positive future and the extremists to be relegated to the margins. While I utterly despise Hamas and reserve most blame for them for the current situation, I do not stand with Israel's Oct 7th 'revenge' or indeed its long-term settler policy, and I'm unequivocally pro-ceasefire, but it has to be a negotiation that is realistic (e.g. all hostages returned).

I think you will find there are a lot of 'pro-Israel' posters on here with similarly moderate views but it is very, very difficult to find a space to be heard that isn't one side or the other because the discussion is so polarised and some (many) are enslaved to a binary view that makes understanding between 'both sides' absolutely impossible. And I see a huge amount of unchecked antisemitism so I refuse to join in with the 'isn't Israel awful' discussion with these posters. You may not recognise the antisemitism that we do, but the hostility towards Jews on the ME threads has been appalling, and deeply, deeply insidious, making it hard to report (this isn't the thread to discuss this anyway, just an explanation as to why I, and I'm sure many others, don't feel comfortable with jumping on board with the anger towards the Israeli govt, even when I feel it myself, because I simply won't engage with antisemites).

I would also add that @EllaDisenchanted's words are considerably more worthy than mine given that she lives in Israel, so I would urge posters to take her views on board.