Standing up for Israel

I think also you have to remember that the people in Gaza literally cannot leave because they are literally locked in.
I’m not sure you can put all the blame on Hamas for using civilians as human shields when it is not actually Hamas preventing them from leaving (plus the whole human shields thing only works if it actually prevents the enemy from bombing you. Not much use if they bomb away regardless)

@ConnieCounter did I say that?

Well I'm mainly upset at those who bombed and killed the civilians.

I don't think that bombing refugee camps is ever reasonable. I'm fairly horrified that you do.

@ConnieCounter as Hamas would have known. I don't see why your anger is not with them?
Why hide them there? Because they are shields.

Well that's good that the Israeli troops were unharmed. And the hostages of course. But the footage showing children's severed feet and other body parts strewn around their tents shows that it was not a good option for many others.

I understood it to mean that they couldn't get out safely without it as they were being shot at. The soldiers were having to use their own bodies to protect the two hostages as they were under fire.

@Humdingerydoo it states the airstrikes coincided with the raid to allow its forces to be extracted, I understand that to mean a distraction so troops could get out safely.

They’ve been negotiating since 7-10. It’s not anything new. Or do you think the previous ceasefire in nov and exchange of people just happened out of nowhere.

Who do you think Israel was negotiating with when 110 hostages were released in November?

@EasterIssland So based on your response you think Israel should negotiate with terrorists?

To be honest, I know it wasn't a refugee camp but thought the poster was calling it that because of how many refugees are in Rafah and I couldn't be bothered correcting them as I didn't think nit-picking would be helpful. So I let it slide.

Based on what I've read, the air raids weren't a distraction - it was a direct response to being fired at from surrounding buildings. You're painting a very different picture based on seemingly the exact same things I've been reading (based on the link you sent), so I'm not entirely sure where you're getting your particular narrative from.

So it’s better to kill innocent lives (risking the lives of these hostages) than saying no but this is my proposal for a ceasefire ?

This is a good and balanced account of what happened. Have you read any of the reports on it? The hostages weren't in the refugee camp they were on the 2nd floor of a building in Rafah. The airstrikes had nothing directly to do with the operation to free the hostages it was to provide a distraction, a distraction that cost the life of innocent civilians.

What should Israel have done? Free the hostages without the airstrikes. And yes I agree Hamas should release them before it escalates to this extent.

RTE news : 67 killed in Israeli operation in Rafah, 2 hostages freed

www.rte.ie/news/middle-east/2024/0212/1431757-rafah-hostages/

You saw the list of prisoners Hamas were asking for, right?

Seek an agreement of a permanent ceasefire and exchange of prisoners vs hostages.

What should Israel have done? Leave the hostages in Gaza because they happen to be held in a refugee camp? The terrorists didn't have to fire at the soldiers trying to rescue the hostages, they could've just let them go, preventing dozens of deaths.

I just said I didn't know enough about it to comment. Israel has said from day 1 it doesn't want a ceasefire so let's not pretend they'd be reasonable on that count.

I don't think anything can justify bombing a refugee camp full of displaced people. Have you seen the scenes? Unimaginable horror against civilians.

The point I am making is that you have deliberately misrepresented my post by stating that I saw the solution as somehow being the fault of hate fuelled Palestinians. This is absolutely not the case.

Bombing Gaza whilst it may or may not remove Hamas will simply create more hate and anger leading to the Hamas being replaced by a group more extreme than Hamas such as PIJ.

If the West Bank can be made to be an economic success and politically stable through Gulf State investment, cracking down on corruption and the halt to (followed by the reversal) of settlements then the ordinary Gazans can see an alternative path and hope towards a better future than a vicious circle of terrorism, followed by Israeli attacks, followed by more anger and hate leading to terrorism.

@ChickHenLittle

www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/2-freed-hostages-say-they-were-held-in-a-family-home-in-rafah-report/

Israel would not refuse a ceasefire if it was a workable one. The things Hamas asked for including the release of convicted murderers with several deaths under their belt would not be supported in light of Sinwar.

freebeacon.com/latest-news/unrwa-teacher-held-israeli-hostage-in-attic-for-almost-50-days-report/

I think it's hugely naive and massively improbable that no one is involved with Hamas. It might sit better with you but shani louk and her treatment show that normal civilians revelled in her death and mutilation. Spitting on her corpse.

It seems whatever is provided you would pick holes in. It happened last night. Two men taken against their will are free. So were they either hidden their on purpose which doesn't really fit the 'resistance' narrative or Israel knew they were in collaborators houses. I am sure in the coming days the hostages will speak.... I am sure that won't be good enough either. You bias shines through.

From Al jeezera...

Netanyahu said days ago rafah was next.
Do you then put two older hostages in a civilian area? Why are you not holding Hamas accountable for that?

This is heartbreaking:

The Gaza health ministry said 67 people had been killed overnight and the number could rise as rescue operations were under way. A Reuters journalist at the scene saw a vast area of rubble where buildings, including a mosque, had been destroyed.

"Why did you kill my family while they were sleeping? They are children. I've been collecting my family's body parts since the morning, they were in parts, I couldn't recognise them, I only recognised their toes or fingers," said Ibrahim Hassouna as a woman knelt over the body of a young child nearby.
The hostages were being held on the second floor of a building that was breached with explosives during the raid, which saw heavy exchanges of gunfire with surrounding buildings, an Israeli military spokesman said.

www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-strikes-rafah-refugee-camp-22-killed-local-health-officials-say-2024-02-12/

Al Jazeera reports that the Israeli army has said 2 captives were rescued from a house.

www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/2/12/israels-war-on-gaza-live-israel-planning-rafah-assault-as-talks-continue

"Criticise us"?

Sorry, no idea who you are. Which "is" are you talking about?

I don't know those the details, please post them if you have independently verified sources.

No one is saying that Hamas is behaving well. I certainly don't and I don't support them. I wouldnt be surpised if they took over civilians' houses or used empty civilian houses and kept hostages there. Anything is possible but I can't comment on comments made here with no sources.

But I'm very upset about what Israel did last night.

It's such a pity that Israel refused the ceasefire deal. I hoped that it would work out, hostages would get home and thousands of Palestinian lives would not be lost or ruined, like so many were last night. There are ways to ensure the safe release of hostages. Bombing civilians is not an acceptable method.

What I find astonishing and hypocritical is that some posters on here will criticise us for posting social media links on occasions saying that we lack critical thinking and gain our greatest understanding of the situation from it when they have posted links and photos from social media themselves. And now criticise you on the choice of media you link to.

Could someone post a link to an article saying the hostages were kept in civilian homes? I'm being genuine as can't see mention of this on BBC or Sky News ans even with Googling nothing comes up on this particular detail.
All I can see is reports of how lots of civilians were killed in the strikes which allowed the 2 hostages to be rescued. I'm glad they're free, but so many innocent people died in the process, it's also such a sad event at the same time.