Standing up for Israel

Education is key, growing up I didn't learn much about Judaism in school or many other religions despite going to a mainstream public school they were just very briefly touched upon. I have learnt alot more about it on mumsnet!
Although I'm glad to see that my DD who is only in year one in primary school is learning about it. She came home one day singing shabbat shalom over and over again which is how I realised 😅 and when I asked her other questions I was impressed with how much she knew.

@Humdingerydoo tbh I did bristle a little when I saw it spelt as 'moslem' but I didn't want to say anything incase it came across as nit picking in a already tense environment, although @Scirocco did so respectfully.
For me personally it's too close to 'mozlem' which is often used in a offensive way.

And in terms of your original point on anti-semitism, you are correct that some things might be offensive that others might not know or realise (myself included) and should be pointed out respectfully to avoid it being repeated.

@Humdingerydoo I personally wouldn't find it offensive at all. It's just the way they spell it in their culture.

It was mostly just a question about my Iraqi family. They mostly write "Moslem" but I think that's because they're arabic speakers (English is their fourth language, after Arabic, Hebrew and French) and write in English phonetically if that makes sense. Would that be considered offensive or would people understand that there is no offense intended? It's admittedly not something they write often, but I have noticed it as I remember wondering why they spelled it like that. They would be horrified if they found out they'd been inadvertently insulting people.

Yes @Mercurial123 , so don't say you're anti-zionist, say you're against those forms of it. I mean, I am too!

Interesting read



Zionism includes different schools of thought, but it’s the nationalist kind Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spearheads. Oded Balilty/AP

This is because of a combination of the failure to transition the West Bank and Gaza into a Palestinian state, and the contradiction of freedom for Israelis and statelessness for Palestinians.

Although the political power of liberal and Labor Zionism in the Knesset (Israel’s Parliament) has waned, it is certainly alive and well in Israeli civil society. For example, B'Tselem, the legacy of left wing Zionist Yossi Sarid, has been very active in documenting instances of apartheid and settler violence in the West Bank.

In short, Zionism does not preclude someone from being critical of the policies of the Israeli government.

However, for many nationalist, conservative religious and revisionist Zionists, Palestinian self-determination anywhere west of the River Jordan is a direct threat to the Jewish state. They, therefore, do not support Palestinian independence.

This form of Zionism has become the dominant form in Israeli politics today.

Under Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, this approach has transcended rhetoric and become legislation in Israel’s Nation State Law of 2018, which legally enshrines unique Jewish sovereignty in the state of Israel and settlement as a “national value”.

It is this kind of Zionism that has informed Israel’s response to Palestinian action - both political and violent - for decades.

It has attempted to justify the blockade of Gaza, the forcible transfer of Palestinians in the West Bank, bans on political speech, mandatory detention without trial, and disproportionate violence as policy solutions to Israeli-Palestinian tensions.

@Humdingerydoo that was me about the 'Moslem' vs Muslim spelling. I'm happy to discuss most things about faith and culture, being curious about each other and our differences is important! I don't think many people would take offence to an honestly asked question. I'm quite busy today but if you do want to ask anything, either @ me or PM me and I can respond when I'm free.

Why was this message deleted?

It's easy to not see things when it's not your loved ones being targeted. I sometimes miss Islamophobic comments on here because it's not something I have to think about very often as it doesn't affect me personally. But I see all the antisemitic and anti-Israeli comments because they affect me by virtue of having lots of family in Israel. So your impression isn't the full picture. It would be impossible for it to be.

And by the way, I report the islamophobic comments I see on here as well. My point is that I don't see them all because I don't know the intricacies of Islamophobia. Like yesterday when someone, possibly on this thread but might have been another, pointed out that writing "Moslem" is offensive to some Muslims. That's not something I ever would've thought about! I wanted to ask more questions about it but wasn't sure if offense would have been taken be my even asking so decided against it.

We don't see what we don't know.

I suppose it’s because I don’t believe the majority of posters on here think Israel should cease to exist. There is a lot of hostility towards Israel on this board admittedly but my impression is that this hostility is directed at its government rather than Israelis themselves and certainly not Jewish people in general.

Ok so then why are you opposed to people reporting antisemitic comments to the relevant authorities? Stuff like anti-zionism is mostly antisemitic (if you're anti-zionism you are against a Jewish state of Israel. That means you're against self-determination for Jews) so by reporting it those who have the power to actually do something about it will know what aspects of antisemitism to focus on when they make their educational material. This means others will hopefully not make those same antisemitic comments in the future. That can surely only be a good thing.

Things get reported to educate others, not to get the posters into trouble.

And before I get jumped on for the anti-zionism thing - if you're ok with the state of Israel existing, you're not an anti-zionist. If it's just that you also want a state of Palestine, maybe think of a new word to describe yourselves as anti-zionist is just not a good fit for you. If you're trying to say that you're against certain forms of Zionism then say that. Be specific. If you're specific about not liking eg illegal settlers and their version of Zionism - say that! That's not the same as being against the existence of the state of Israel.

I don't speak for everyone!
Never said you did. Just trying to make a point.

@Fussandmisery I don't speak for everyone!

I don't think it's up to you to decide what a different minority find offensive. It doesn't need to be obvious to others for it to be antisemitic. Maybe open yourself to being educated on antisemitism rather than try to argue about it

Well I did ask. And I was told (by stomachameleon) that criticism of Israel’s government is not antisemitism, stuff like Jews control the media, Jews being held to account for Israel’s actions rather than Israel’s government is . Which I would agree with.

If we have only seen a screenshot from a video that someone's posted on social media where they state this is what happened but we have no evidence as the video no longer exists, it's going to be really difficult to assume it's actually accurate. It's not about defending everything Israel says or does, it's about not blindly trusting everything that's said on social media.

I'm willing to believe the video with the screenshot was false Israeli propaganda but without any proof (as I haven't actually seen the video in question) I'm not to comment on it either way.

I hope that makes sense.

I don't think it's up to you to decide what a different minority find offensive. It doesn't need to be obvious to others for it to be antisemitic. Maybe open yourself to being educated on antisemitism rather than try to argue about it.

@whatsitcalledwhen I will take those comments on board.

Regarding reporting others to CJS and Prevent, it is just a way to shut down any discourse and to intimidate. I find this really unsavoury

Yes, there was definitely a move towards this by some posters on here and it probably was an attempt to intimidate.

I mean if this board was full of people saying Jews secretly rule the world or Israel should be destroyed then I’d understand it (and something might of come of the reporting) but that’s not really what’s going on is it?

@stomachameleon

If you feel I have been personal then complain. I try not to be.

Come on now, surely on reflection sometimes you've looked back on posts and realised you have definitely been personal? I remember your username specifically because I have noticed such posts, some of which I felt were antagonistic and were very often sarcastic at best.

And FYI many people don't like to report posts in which others insult them or get personal because they would prefer the posts to stand for full context of the discussion.

Totally agree with this. I have been at the receiving end of this behaviour.
Regarding reporting others to CJS and Prevent, it is just a way to shut down any discourse and to intimidate. I find this really unsavoury.

@Fussandmisery half your post I agree with and half I have opinions on. Criticism is valid I know. I do try and remain open minded.

Not all Criticism is antisemitism.
Some people on here have been.
I wouldn't mention it if it wasn't here regularly.

This has been done to death. I don't care about criticism of the government. I criticise the government. I don't care about Criticism of Netanyahu.... he should be criticised. There is lots of scope for Criticism.

I complain when it heads into ' the media are controlled by all Jews and they control world territory' which I hear on a regular basis. It's all the jews type stuff..... why don't the Jews do X and Y?

I haven’t seen any posts claiming that Jewish people control the media? There may be some that i didn’t see as they were deleted.

I would say most of the people accused (not necessarily by you personally btw) of antisemitism/being pro Hamas are just critical of the government/IDF.

For example the bombing of Gaza - Israel is trying to obliterate it. Admittedly they are possibly trying to destroy the infrastructure rather than the population but they aren’t really that bothered about the population either. This is a decision made by Israel’s government but some people get very irritated by this being pointed out.

Or the administrative detention that goes on in the West Bank? Apparently it’s antisemitic to point out that detaining people (some of whom are children) without trial is not such a great thing to do. And all the organisations who are report in this (the UN, amnesty international, pretty much any human rights organisation you care to names) are biased (ie antisemitic) etc etc etc.

@anotherlevel last night on the mp thread. It was deleted. I have seen that several times.

If you feel I have been personal then complain. I try not to be.

How can anyone justify this false propaganda?

Why is each 'side' so entrenched that (for example) people who feel Israel's behaviour is warranted cant at least say that the use of this picture is disgraceful and completely wrong, and acknowledge how it damages Israel's credibility?