Standing up for Israel

@DreamVortex
On the topic of Israel being attacked because it was Jewish, you may find this essay from 1923 by Zionist leader and orator Vladimir Jabotinsky of interest. It's a bit long winded, but here is an excerpt:

"Any native people – its all the same whether they are civilized or savage – views their country as their national home, of which they will always be the complete masters [...] Compromisers in our midst attempt to convince us that the Arabs are some kind of fools who can be tricked by a softened formulation of our goals, or a tribe of money grubbers who will abandon their birth right to Palestine for cultural and economic gains. I flatly reject this assessment of the Palestinian Arabs [...]They look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux looked upon his prairie. To think that the Arabs will voluntarily consent to the realization of Zionism in return for the cultural and economic benefits we can bestow on them is infantile[...]Every indigenous people will resist alien settlers as long as they see any hope of ridding themselves of the danger of foreign settlement."

That's not why Israel was attacked but I understand that those who deny the occupation tell themselves that.

Can you post a link to those tweets please?

Yes, and he's right. Israel has been attacked because it's a Jewish state.

And Briahna Joy Gray has put out multiple tweets denying that rape happened on 7/10.

@DreamVortex I quoted directly too. He said "Israel has been attacked, BECAUSE it's a Jewish state, for decades" just before the part you quoted. And that is what she was referring to in her response. If you don't believe me, you can check.
They did not discuss rape at all.

I quoted the video exactly since you accused me of paraphrasing. He said that Israel has been attacked by it's neighbours. Which it has. To which the rape denialists compared Jewish people to colonisers attacking native Americans.

He said "Israel has been attacked, BECAUSE it's a Jewish state, for decades". That is the comment she was responding to @DreamVortex .

I can't see the comment you're referring to, but I agree with you that what you've described - the events of 7/10 - was absolutely not resistance. It wasn't even 'armed resistance'. It was terrorism. The people responsible (both the people who participated and the people who actively or passively planned or allowed it to happen) need to be brought to justice. The deceased, the injured and their families deserve justice and answers.

What comment are you referring to? I can't see the poster/comment either

He did not say Palestines are "Jew haters".

DP: Israel has been attacked since the day it was established by the free world after the holocaust. It was attacked by its neighbours.

BJG: That's like saying that American settlers were attacked by native Americans because they were white.

The implication being that when Israel was attacked as soon as it was founded it had nothing to do with it being a Jewish state, it was purely self defense and attacking them was justified.

In any case, she's still a rape denialist who is against the existance of Israel.

What comment are you referring to? I can't see the message.

@TinyYellow disgusting comment and you think If you feel so strongly about it you could spell Israel correctly.

Rape and murder of civilians, the wiping out of whole families, butchering peace activists is not resistance.

It absolutely is terrorism.

It is easy to blame religion, historically religion and culture have gone hand in hand.
Many Jewish people will tell you that it is their heritage rather than their practice that makes them Jewish. Hitler didn't care how orthodox they were.
Historically religious leaders exercised great control over people, mostly now we exercise control over ourselves.
In much of the world religion tends to build communities and support, but sometimes the gaps between these communities create separation and distrust and we take sides.
The power structures in the middle east are strongly faith based, but not entirely.

The only way peace will come is if people realise that this conflict is fed by religion, and start forcing religious leaders to openly accept a peaceful solution. People talk about land being the issue, the reason why that particular land was chosen to be Israel is because of religion. Muslims on the other hand also believe that land belongs to them. Both sides are energised by support from followers of the respective religions around the worlds, in the form of financial aid and business. Political solutions have failed because the political leaders do no have sufficient power to hold sway against religious leaders. The religious leaders need to be forced to publicly come to an agreement to a two state solution and that is the only way this will be resolved.

@DreamVortex He was making the claim that Palestinians are Jew-haters, and she responded by saying that's like saying that Native Americans are white-people haters. Not the same thing as what you paraphrased.

All I can say is to create bridges, trust, connections, understanding...everything a terror groups hates. So much trust was destroyed on 7/10, people who wanted 'peace', who worked for 'peace'. People they thought were friends and neighbours betrayed them. Back to square one.
There were the beginnings of a solution in the 90's then hamas emerged, Rabin was assassinated by an israeli hardliner, hamas suicide bombers targeted buses and hey presto netanyahu was elected.
We are so far away and so safe in the UK (though with antisemitism on the rise - not all of us), most of us have no idea thank god, and that's part of the problem.

I appreciate your admission of - direct quote - "borne of frustration". I only feel that "every 50 seconds or so" myself!

Look, honestly, I may have quite literally thrown plates against a wall in a rage and broken them on several occasions during the last few months. [I actually did do this - I am just not the type to hurt actual people, but: who cares about mere crockery?!]

So, anyway, how do we "peace"? I realise it is a god-awful question - because any even conceivably realistic response includes "and now: everyone is angry and unhappy"!

Hello Heidi
The comment you're quoting was borne of frustration.
In the UK, I can see prejudice and division turning into violence and intimidation. The marches exacerbate a divide. I think most sane people on both 'sides' want the war to end. Hind could be my child just as much as Kfir.

I have read your posts about your connections in the middle east. Your perspective is a part of the picture and I appreciate the information you've provided.

@DreamVortex she sounds delightful. Do you think that's ok @LilaDidIt?

She believes that Israel being attacked is the same as Native Americans defending themselves against European colonistsand that there should not be a Jewish state because Jewish people are perfectly safe in America. She also likes to spend her free time tweeting that no rapes happened on 7/10 and that Hamas took really good care of the hostages. But you go ahead in spin that in whataver way makes you fell better about yourself.

Some of the comments on that video are completely sick by the way.

Your interpretation maybe. She asked him why he opposed a one-state solution.

The women in the video you posted without comment or context does not believe that there should be a Jewish state.

@LilaDidIt did you not watch it?

@DreamVortex huh?

Which involves getting rid of the state of Israel, apparently.

This is a genuine question, and I genuinely would appreciate an answer:

What does "peace" mean to you?

Asking because you are obviously sort of from the "other" side opposite me and, in around two decades, I have heard all sorts of ideas of what "peace" would look like, ranging from "Arabs out" to "Jews out" - and all sorts of more or less workable ideas along the spectrum.

But I do not typically get to discuss the details with people who are not "my people" (and, needless to say, they tend to broadly agree with me - but they also tend to have similar biases).