Us to send 17.6billion to Israel

@Zipidydodah spot on. And, as ever noone gives a shit about Africa and Africans in this jostling. There are children there too being raped, murdered, kidnapped but no marches for them.

Im struck by your comment on Biden taking his eye off the ball. Im NOT criticising you but I do think its interesting how the world expects america to police the world when it suits them but maintains it is the most evil of colonialists when it does. I mean all these people suddenly consumed with a moralistic passion for gazan children also took their eye off the ball too, right?

It’s amazing isn’t it. The total distain for America….. blamed when they ‘interfere’ and blamed when they don’t.

The reality is that the world is shifting towards another ‘superpower’ vs ‘superpower’ stand off (at least I hope it’s a stand off and nothing more)

Russia and China are forging an anti-western alliance because the rulers of those countries have no intention whatsoever of allowing their countries to become democracies. Post Arab spring, Iran has become essential to them in this aim so they have basically bought it. They are buying up most of Africa - see South African support for Hammas but also the Silk Road initiative, there a multiple countries in Africa who are now so much in debt to China that they can never ever pay what they owe back - and Russia is now chipping away at Eastern European leaders with similar intentions (Belarus, Hungary, Slovenia) who have leaders pushing more towards autocratic states. Endogan is currently changing the constitution in Turkey to make it less and less possible for anyone other than himself or his named successor to win.
America is the ONLY country with the money and tech to at least hold these fuckers a bay. Europe is weak, divided and pretty much broke. America needs allies especially in Israel which is strategically vital. So they’ll fund them even if they don’t like this particular Israeli government. And little bitty UK should be fucking grateful they will and do because we are fucked if it wasn’t for the US trying to limit this hideous rise of right wing, autocratic states that are growing across the world.

What happens if Israel has a ceasefire? Hamas have said they have no intention of upholding one at all and no interest in 2 states? So, when you say permanent the only result is that you are saying to Israel that if Hamas, Hezbollah or anyone else attacks them, which they will, they have to let them do so and can't retaliate. Is there any other way of reading the demand for a 'permanent ceasefire'?

State governments are different to the national/federal government. Yes there is a nasty resurgent right in america. Biden does not support them. I was talking about Israel anyway.

"... as does every civilised person and country"

I would disagree with classing anyone supporting the horrendous crimes against the Palestinian people as being "civilised"

Great news! The west us finally taking a vocal stand against terrorism

Good points @WatTyler

Part of the issue is Palestinians are desperate for aid!!

Are you serious? Do you have any idea of how many US facilities there are in the Middle East. They are absolutely everywhere, I'm pretty sure Iran doesn't have bases in Mexico, they were even trying to get the Greek Government to allow them to use the Greek Islands which was breaking an agreement between Greece and Turkey, not sure what happened about that

That's already happening

Should we also stop aid to the Palestinians until Hamas agrees to a ceasefire too? Fair is fair, right?!

1. It’s a vote winner. Historically the American public supports Israel
2. That money usually flows back into the American economy because it can only be used to purchase American weapons
3. America buys Israeli weapons
4. It is the only liberal democratic country in the Middle East which aligns to western values
5. It is supposedly the key ally in the region who will make the Middle East stable and secure allowing the US focus to shift to other threats.
6. It is important for Israel not to feel alone

Personally, the more I read the more I think it has become a liability and a waste of money. It would be different if that money was buying some sort of influence. However, it’s unconditional and Israel will do what Israel wants to do regardless of US concerns. It sells weapons to China, to Venezuela. It makes the US look like a hypocrite on the World stage with its treatment of the Palestinians. Saudi Arabia is also a key ally. There are problems with the relationship but aligning on values has never been a key requirement for the west, as it has propped up many a despot when it suits.

The US? They arent and never have been in control of the area. Im wondering who would benefit from Iran being in control? Not women, not gay people, not Kurds, not jews, not druze, not christians, not various sections of islam that dont align with Iran's leaders etc etc etc

Like I said Hamas inaction in building/sharing their tunnels is not unexpected and Ukraines governance of Ukraine can't really be compared to Hamas behaviour in Gaza in any way whatsoever

Hamas are parasites on the people of Gaza

Yes, sure, I know you meant in terms of the peace process. They get little credit for their attempts to broker diplomatic deals, but we kind of expect them to do it anyway & then complain when they protect their own interests. You cant really expect one without the other is, I guess, what I am saying.

On the other point, yes there have been and are good people involved in promoting peace and understanding on this issue & involved in the tough work of finding solutions for a very long time. Some of them were murdered or taken hostage on 7 October. I was more referring to the hysterics of the diletantes who have just picked it up recently, are now acting like its only human rights crisis in the world and the absolute moral touchstone on which everyone/thing is judged. The proliferation of threads on MN (& very few other issues) being a symptom of that.

They're protecting their "interests" in the Middle East, nothing to do with human lives as long as they're in control of the area

I wasn't clear about Biden - I meant more in terms of the peace process rather than policing Israeli Hamas actions, which they've been involved in for decades.

Their have always been activists and humanitarian workers passionate about the well-being of Gaza's children and other vulnerable groups for years and years

You don't need me to tell you why there is now worldwide concern about their safety

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@Efacsen 'Hamas not building air-raid shelters for the civilian population - not unexpected really - but also the blockade on building materials, the dense population and local geology would have prevented their construction'

Maybe those tunnels? Compare Ukraine where they are building underground schools. Has Hamas done anything to protect its population? It knew what would happen when it launched an attack of the scale and brutality of 7/10.

That all makes sense, I don't actually know the truth of it. The politics is certainly murky because its a complex, messy situation & netanyahu is certainly corrupt. Everyone I know with connections to Israel wants him gone.

Im struck by your comment on Biden taking his eye off the ball. Im NOT criticising you but I do think its interesting how the world expects america to police the world when it suits them but maintains it is the most evil of colonialists when it does. I mean all these people suddenly consumed with a moralistic passion for gazan children also took their eye off the ball too, right?

I think it's true to say that in recent years a large part of the 'diverted aid' came from Qatar who were also funding legitimate re-building so had permission to import building materials but would also have had an interest in Hamas nefarious building projects.

Other large funders had had their fingers burnt before so were much more careful auditing where aid was going

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Absolutely this. Thank fuck someone is standing up in support of them. I still can't believe that all the hostages haven't been freed.

I'm maybe not the best person to answer your question but my understanding is that the Biden administration took their eye off the ball wrt the Middle East and left the ongoing issues to quietly fester away until the bombshell of 7/10. Also Bidens allegedly poor relationship with Netanyahu didn't help

Netanyahu enabling massive Hamas funding for Gaza from Qatar to divide and rule between Hamas and the PA was in retrospect a questionable policy - probably built a few tunnels

Hamas not building air-raid shelters for the civilian population - not unexpected really - but also the blockade on building materials, the dense population and local geology would have prevented their construction

Those billions should be suspended immediately unless Israel agrees to a permanent ceasefire and a peace plan for the future overseen by a collection of other Countries. That should be an incentive for them.