Us to send 17.6billion to Israel

@SharonEllis This is somewhat selective. Never has a democratic legitimacy been a prerequisite for Israeli recognition. Never has it been a requirement that a government has not gained power through a coup. Both Israel and the US have been more than happy to have relations with Egypt when the current Egyptian leadership attained its power through a coup overthrowing the only democratically elected leader in the country’s history.

I concede Hamas is a different story because it is a matter of security and would require ceding territory, but let’s stop pretending that Israel is somehow less self-serving than everybody else. Israeli leadership doesn’t care about the personal safety of those hostages. They have unfortunately been serving their purpose right where they are as a justification.

There were also Israelis killed intermittently by Palestinians prior to 7 October, which you fail to mention. There was a ceasefire in the commonly understood meaning of the term. 7/10 was a grotesque escalation which Hamas knew would trigger a massive retaliation.

I really wish mumsnet would stamp down on misinformation on this topic. It's really annoying to read the same misinformation spread repeatedly. Things like Hamas broke a ceasefire on Oct 7. It feels really disrespectful to the 100s of Palestinians Israel killed last year prior to Oct 7 to just write them out of history or like their lives didn't matter enough to count as 'breaking a ceasefire' but when Israeli lives are lost it counts. Especially when 2023 was the deadliest year on record for children in the West Bank prior to Oct 7. There was no ceasefire for Palestinians.

@MissyB1 so, if I read the al jazeera piece right (dont have an FT sub) the proposed deal was not just a ceasefire in exchange for hostages. The deal included recognising hamas in Gaza - surely you can see why that is off the table? Hamas is an authoritarian regime attempting to impose sharia law. It seized power in a coup & does not have democratic legitimacy. While it ammended its charter noone believes that was anything other than a cynical move as it has since repeated again & again 'from the river to the sea' which explicitly rules out 2 states & said it will repeat october 7th. It has consistently attacked Israel with rockets and broke the last ceasefire in the most barbarous way imaginable. Of course Israel isnt going to recognise Hamas. People are always telling us, yes we agree Hamas is terrible, Hamas does not equal Palestinian people, so who on earth would expect Israel to recognise them? The deal also included releasing palestinian prisoners, some of them I expect, will have attacked and even murdered Israelis in terrorist attacks. The hostages on the other hand are entirely innocent. Some palestinians will be imprisoned without due process, undoubtedly, and may be innocent, but we know that some of the hostages were peace activists & people sympathetic to the peace process. You can see why this is not a serious proposal surely?

At this point, Israel is perfectly capable of defending itself without input from the US.

The difference is scale. I don’t think what Palestinians have received is even approaching a 10th of what Israel has received from the US.

The money going to Israel is to protect its citizens though, isn't it .@MissyB1 ?

So what's the difference? If they're bombed from all sides and not protected then they won't need food

Palestinian civilians are not Hamas so not sure what your point is??? 🤔
The money going to Israel is not to feed Israeli citizens you do know that right?

Will try to copy and paste but some sites don’t let you - or I’m just rubbish at it!
https://www.ft.com/content/7b7dc2e2-0773-4409-ae07-ddcaea50dee2

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2024/1/22/how-israel-has-repeatedly-rejected-hamas-truce-offers#:~:text=On%20Sunday%2C%20Netanyahu%20rejected%20a,of%20Hamas%20governance%20over%20Gaza.

on the second link scroll down and you should find it.

Basically Hamas said that the hostages would be released if there was a permanent ceasefire and withdrawal of IDF. Without that there can be no negotiations. I believe that was in response to a possible offer of short term halt in bombing by Israel again.
However all that was a couple of weeks ago, and I believe work by other countries on negotiations have been moving forward since then. Hence it’s difficult to find many links now as the situation changes. Surprised people missed this? I heard it on channel 4 news.

@MissyB1
. I believe Hamas would agree if the deal for the future was right. They have already offered to return all hostages who have survived the bombing in return for a permanent ceasefire'

When did they offer this? Do you have a source please?

Sorry, that was to @LifeExperience

You seriously don't see the issue for the United States (a NATO member) if Russia takes over Ukraine? Wow.

Yes if course there has to be a permanent ceasefire but that only happens with a deal.Sorry, I must have missed Hamas agreeing to a ceasefire - could you point me to the information on that? The last I heard was Hamas rejecting 2 potential deals. Thanks

I mean all these people suddenly consumed with a moralistic passion for gazan children
A moralistic passion? What do you mean by this?
I am consumed by disgust at that at least 10 000 children have died, that women have c-section without pain killers, that they are watching their children die through starvation or being buried under rubble.
I am consume by disgust that what I see is happening to these people on a daily basis.
My disgust is not sudden. I follow what the Israeli government has done to the Palestinians for years. I never thought they would dare to do what they are doing now. I was wrong.
The USA and the UK have blood on their hands.

Iran already has the backing of China and Russia, therefore Israel cannot afford to cut ties with the US and leave itself isolated. The US does not need to spend these ridiculous sums of Aid to secure a relationship with Israel, a country which is already rich and has a mature weapons industry. Withdrawing it could very well force Israel to be more circumspect in its dealings with Palestine, allowing it to strengthen its ties with other ME nations who are not aligned with Iran.

The US meanwhile could cease participating in the weakening of the UN (not entirely its fault), strengthen its relationship with countries in the global south and loosen the foothold of the other great powers.

There has to be a permanent ceasefire as soon as possible surely? Who would not want that? Well obviously Israel don’t seem to, but that’s where the pressure from the rest of the world must come in. I believe Hamas would agree if the deal for the future was right. They have already offered to return all hostages who have survived the bombing in return for a permanent ceasefire. All of this needs speeding up and Israel need to be made to understand it’s going to happen. They won’t be happy but tough, the slaughter has to stop. Stopping billions of $$$ from USA might focus minds a little.

I'm an American and I'm against sending $$ to Israel. Israel is wealthy enough and technologically advanced enough that they don't need our money.

I'm also against sending $$ to Ukraine. That war is Europe's problem.

@MissyB1 I'm not sure why this is addressed to me. Obviously there are only 2 options - 1 side obliterates the other or there is a diplomatic settlement. The latter is I hope, the outcome . I was questioning the naive and disingeuous 'permanent ceasefire now' position which keeps being shouted, with absolutely no attempt at an explanation of how that is to be achieved. There is an encouraging piece in the times today about various ME states being prepared to move such negotiations along (from an American negotiator). Of course, there was a ceasefire and Saudi Arabia was normalising relations with Israel when Hamas decided to attack Israel. The absolute horror of 7/10 was a bit more than 'being mouthy'. It was very much putting words into action.

Israel have said plenty too, none of it anything to be proud of either. Both sides will be mouthy of course. But both sides know it has to end at some point and a future must be found that works. The rest of the world has a responsibility to insist on this. Can either side be trusted? Well they will have to be closely monitored won’t they?
Anyway what’s the alternative?

Israel is a key American ally in the region, and it became even more important when the Iranians overthrew the Shah.
not entirely true , historically if you go back to the first coup in the 50s and then again the Islamic revolution in 79, the U.K. , US an France facilitated the both revolutions to protect their Oil interest in the region, Carter did not want to accept the shah in the US and reluctantly did so, he wanted to establish diplomatic relations with the new Iranian regime, in-fact Khomeni was living in France at that time and came to Teheran on a charted Air France flight.
DF was heavily involved in the events of 79,
he still says that The US has no allies or true friends and will dispose of you when you are no longer needed.

BackandForthRoundandRound
I agree … but as PP points out what would you have any Israeli govt do? The other side Palestine/Hamas are backed by Iran (and by default) China & Russia and have stated that they will continue to attack Israel until it is no more. Why do you think israel has the ‘iron dome’ …. it’s because they had rocket attacks daily from all surrounding countries. A ceasefire requires two sides to agree.

theconfidenceofwho
I don’t think people realise just how dangerous a position we are in. Just because Russia /China aren’t going to invade the UK doesn’t mean they can’t literally bankrupt us. I’m astounded by the amount of people who say that we should ‘not get involved’ etc. Once Russia has retaken the Eastern European states either politically by creating allies and supporting the roll back of democracy or by force - see Ukraine and China had finished buying up every African & South America countries resource, how can people not see that they will just economically bankrupt us by restricting access to resources and buy selling at favourable rates to allies. But the British public don’t know or care ….so yes evil Americans supporting evil Israel.

Only once they have wiped out Israel.

Actually Hamas has stated a permanent ceasefire is what they wish to happen

Stating that what the Israeli government is doing to the Palestinian people does not equal supporting Hamas. So many people seem to be deliberately not understanding this vital fact.

Powerful countries support their allies.

As the only true democracy in the Middle East, and an adversary of America’s enemy Iran, Israel is a key strategic & geopolitical ally of the US. The Jewish lobby is also very influential in US politics.

I agree @Zipidydodah - it's horrifying and I can't believe that people don't see this happening.

How anyone in the UK or any other western democracy can support Hamas is baffling to me - they don't just hate, but want to destroy our way of life, women are definitely not seen as equal and they'd happily strip away all our rights. Never mind LGB rights (no idea of their views of the T).

Plus they're so hypocritical given their mansions and money in Qatar etc.

Russia and China want world domination and they don't have their citizens interests at heart at all. Cannon fodder & no respect for life with dissent met with jail / murder. Just awful.