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Conflict in the Middle East

Us to send 17.6billion to Israel

111 replies

EasterIssland · 03/02/2024 21:37

17.6 billion would include funds to help replenish Israel's missile defense systems, procure additional advanced weapons systems, and produce artillery and other munitions

why
why does Israel need so much money if they’re such a successful country
why Israel? Why not any other country?
What benefit does usa get from funding a conflict ?

can anyone explain why does usa keep on aiding Israel when this money could save many lives around the world?

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-house-panel-recommends-176-billion-military-aid-israel-2024-02-03/

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25milesfromhome · 05/02/2024 08:17

queenofarles · 05/02/2024 05:36

Indeed. Much peaceful, very co-existence. No violent purges or ethnic cleansing whatsoever.

But let’s not forget other major factors from 1940s onwards like some Arab countries were under German rules during WW2, and Jews were killed as a subsequent, somewhere between 4000 to 5000 were killed in North Africa , and then there was the call to immigrate and populate the newly formed Nation of Israel , operation Yachin in Morocco , Moses in Ethiopia Mossad involvement in driving Jews out of Iraq as well as heightened tensions due to the events of 48 and the Ba’ath regime and Pan Arab movement of 50s-60s in several Arab countries .

But also let us not forget how
Morocco refused to hand over their Jewish population to the Vichy government and face what millions of European jews sadly faced in Nazi concentration camps, the king famously said I have no Jews , I only have Moroccans in my country.

some nations like Iran welcomed escaped Polish Jews from the Soviet Union during WW2 and how some decided to remain in places like Iran , the biggest Jewish population in ME are in Iran after all.

Many Arabs and Middle eastern individuals risked their lives to save Jews during WW2, like Egyptian Dr Mohammed Helmi and an Iranian diplomat by the name Sirdari who issued Iranian passports to help Jews escape .

And please please let’s never forget that neither Arabs nor Muslims are responsible for the horrors of WW2, that prior to these events in Europe and for over two Millennias Jews lived in somewhat co existence and in thriving communities in the ME.

Edited

And that’s why there are still so many Jews happily and peacefully co-existing in all these countries today. Not my family, who experienced persecution, denial of citizenship and displacement from three of the countries on that list both pre and post WW2. No refugee status, no reparations and no right of return afforded to them. No history lecture required.

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stomachameleon · 05/02/2024 07:44

Where the ceasefire is concerned I think he believes he has the 'wherewithal' to defeat all powers and wars. Same with Ukraine. He said it would all be over in a day if he was president.
The reality of course......?

stomachameleon · 05/02/2024 07:42

@EasterIssland I believe trump would do anything to garner votes but

apnews.com/article/trump-netanyahu-israel-2024-primary-criticism-7fb4181b664bb28408ff92b8e5565ced

He also stopped funding to unwra whilst he was president and Biden reinstated it.

I believe it's well known they get on.

EasterIssland · 05/02/2024 07:36

stomachameleon · 04/02/2024 21:43

@EasterIssland I believe Trump and Netanyahu get on. In my opinion that's not the stumbling block to that deal... he is anti getting involved in Ukraine.
I may be wrong.

Not sure about that , i saw a video the other day where he was calling for a ceasefire

tbh I see both as politicians that want to save their arses and will do whatever to obtain at and probably trump is trying to get some pro Palestine votes that Biden is losing in the coming elections

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stomachameleon · 05/02/2024 07:27

@25milesfromhome goof point.

BackandForthRoundandRound · 05/02/2024 06:35

SharonEllis · 05/02/2024 06:27

Noone has ever to my knowledge here, or anywhere else, blamed muslims for the nazi genocide in europe. Yes, we know that Jews are from the ME & lived in thriving communities for milennia. That's kind of the point. Of course there were Arabs who did not persecute them. There always are good people who resist evil. But the overall picture of Jews in the ME in the 20th century is one of persecution & people having to leave (often leaving everything behind) because their lives were no longer tenable in those countries. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-arab-countries

History would state otherwise....

BackandForthRoundandRound · 05/02/2024 06:35

ProfessorPipsqueak · 04/02/2024 16:14

I really wish mumsnet would stamp down on misinformation on this topic. It's really annoying to read the same misinformation spread repeatedly. Things like Hamas broke a ceasefire on Oct 7. It feels really disrespectful to the 100s of Palestinians Israel killed last year prior to Oct 7 to just write them out of history or like their lives didn't matter enough to count as 'breaking a ceasefire' but when Israeli lives are lost it counts. Especially when 2023 was the deadliest year on record for children in the West Bank prior to Oct 7. There was no ceasefire for Palestinians.

Edited

Agreed... all this does is continue to spread more lies in an attempt to gloss over what has actually been going on.

SharonEllis · 05/02/2024 06:27

Noone has ever to my knowledge here, or anywhere else, blamed muslims for the nazi genocide in europe. Yes, we know that Jews are from the ME & lived in thriving communities for milennia. That's kind of the point. Of course there were Arabs who did not persecute them. There always are good people who resist evil. But the overall picture of Jews in the ME in the 20th century is one of persecution & people having to leave (often leaving everything behind) because their lives were no longer tenable in those countries. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-arab-countries

Jewish Refugees from Arab Countries

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-arab-countries

queenofarles · 05/02/2024 05:36

Indeed. Much peaceful, very co-existence. No violent purges or ethnic cleansing whatsoever.

But let’s not forget other major factors from 1940s onwards like some Arab countries were under German rules during WW2, and Jews were killed as a subsequent, somewhere between 4000 to 5000 were killed in North Africa , and then there was the call to immigrate and populate the newly formed Nation of Israel , operation Yachin in Morocco , Moses in Ethiopia Mossad involvement in driving Jews out of Iraq as well as heightened tensions due to the events of 48 and the Ba’ath regime and Pan Arab movement of 50s-60s in several Arab countries .

But also let us not forget how
Morocco refused to hand over their Jewish population to the Vichy government and face what millions of European jews sadly faced in Nazi concentration camps, the king famously said I have no Jews , I only have Moroccans in my country.

some nations like Iran welcomed escaped Polish Jews from the Soviet Union during WW2 and how some decided to remain in places like Iran , the biggest Jewish population in ME are in Iran after all.

Many Arabs and Middle eastern individuals risked their lives to save Jews during WW2, like Egyptian Dr Mohammed Helmi and an Iranian diplomat by the name Sirdari who issued Iranian passports to help Jews escape .

And please please let’s never forget that neither Arabs nor Muslims are responsible for the horrors of WW2, that prior to these events in Europe and for over two Millennias Jews lived in somewhat co existence and in thriving communities in the ME.

25milesfromhome · 05/02/2024 00:02

SharonEllis · 04/02/2024 22:12

And how many Jews live in ME countries apart from Israel now?

Indeed. Much peaceful, very co-existence. No violent purges or ethnic cleansing whatsoever.

Us to send 17.6billion to Israel
SharonEllis · 04/02/2024 22:12

Coyoacan · 04/02/2024 22:02

Stop rewriting history. The people who purged the Jews were the Nazis and European Christians. Jews and Muslims have peacefully lived side by side in the Middle East for centuries.

And how many Jews live in ME countries apart from Israel now?

Coyoacan · 04/02/2024 22:02

SharonEllis · 04/02/2024 07:53

'Its all politics' makes it sound superficial. Its not superficial when Jews who lived for centuries in countries across the Middle East have been persucuted & purged from these countries. Israel is pretty much the only place where jews arabs christians, druze etc women, gay people, etc have a chance of living a decent life in a thriving economy. Iran is a theocratic dictatorship, pulling strings across the region.

Stop rewriting history. The people who purged the Jews were the Nazis and European Christians. Jews and Muslims have peacefully lived side by side in the Middle East for centuries.

stomachameleon · 04/02/2024 21:43

@EasterIssland I believe Trump and Netanyahu get on. In my opinion that's not the stumbling block to that deal... he is anti getting involved in Ukraine.
I may be wrong.

MCOut · 04/02/2024 21:01

@SharonEllis Realistically though, is there ever going to be a Palestinian organisation which Israel feels is benign enough to implement a two state solution with? When it looked like there might have been a pathway to unified Palestinian leadership, Netanyahu got in there to play, divide and conquer.

The same question can be flipped, are Palestinians ever going to put any sort of faith in an Israeli government or any organisation affiliated with Israel? It was unlikely before, after this, it feels impossible.

There is no version of a two-state solution, which does not involve extremely hostile Palestinian leadership. That now remains the case, whether Israel eradicates Hamas or not, and I think at some stage Israel has got to make peace with that. I know that is a very harsh thing to say, but the alternative is that at some point, a one state solution would be forced and whoever suggests it would be peaceful or it’s possible maintain a Jewish character indefinitely is probably selling dreams.

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Parkingt111 · 04/02/2024 20:52

Not all US politicians agree with the US funding that is going towards the war. Some are openly opposed like Bernie Sanders.

"For the sake of the Palestinian people and our own standing in the world we must not provide another dollar for the Netanyahu war machine."

https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1754232724322156767?t=qKdZJ27HEs2ufq1INkEtrA&s=19

Us to send 17.6billion to Israel
ProfessorPipsqueak · 04/02/2024 20:33

SharonEllis · 04/02/2024 20:07

I've already responded to that. Your conflation of the WB/PA & Gaza/Hamas amounts to misinformation.

And I've already explained that I am conflating nothing. Israel can't be violent and murderous towards Palestinians but then say they are in a ceasefire. It doesn't matter which Palestinians Israel choose to be violent and murderous towards, the two are linked and always will be. Israel can't escalate the violence again in the West Bank post 7/10 using 7/10 as an excuse and then pretend they don't see the two as linked when it suits them. So we will have to agree to disagree.

SharonEllis · 04/02/2024 20:07

I've already responded to that. Your conflation of the WB/PA & Gaza/Hamas amounts to misinformation.

ProfessorPipsqueak · 04/02/2024 19:13

SharonEllis · 04/02/2024 17:34

But completely different issue in terms of whether Hamas, as an organisation, has a place in any peace process which is what we are discussing @ProfessorPipsqueak

I was talking about your misinformation about there being a ceasefire before Oct 7.

SharonEllis · 04/02/2024 17:34

But completely different issue in terms of whether Hamas, as an organisation, has a place in any peace process which is what we are discussing @ProfessorPipsqueak

ProfessorPipsqueak · 04/02/2024 17:13

SharonEllis · 04/02/2024 16:54

You're talking about the West Bank, run by the PA. I'm talking about gaza run by Hamas. Two different geographical areas, two different governments, two very different issues. I agree the behaviour of settlers, encouraged by extremists in the government, is a disgrace. Dealing with the illegal settlements has to be part of any wider peace settlement.

So you are saying if there was violence in one part of Israel it would have no effect on the rest of Israel? Palestinian territories are separated geographically but families are spread across both areas. People in Gaza love and care for people in the West Bank and vice versa. The freedom of movement restrictions that Israel imposes obviously impairs how much they can see each other but it is disingenuous to pretend that there is no relationship between the two and that violence in one doesn't effect people in the other.

Also to add if they are such separate areas with nothing to do with each other then why have Israel upped the violence in the West Bank again since Oct 7? Israel can keep them physically separate from each other but they can't severe the bonds between them.

SharonEllis · 04/02/2024 17:00

MCOut · 04/02/2024 16:35

@SharonEllis This is somewhat selective. Never has a democratic legitimacy been a prerequisite for Israeli recognition. Never has it been a requirement that a government has not gained power through a coup. Both Israel and the US have been more than happy to have relations with Egypt when the current Egyptian leadership attained its power through a coup overthrowing the only democratically elected leader in the country’s history.

I concede Hamas is a different story because it is a matter of security and would require ceding territory, but let’s stop pretending that Israel is somehow less self-serving than everybody else. Israeli leadership doesn’t care about the personal safety of those hostages. They have unfortunately been serving their purpose right where they are as a justification.

That may or may not be true and there is huge protest in Israel against netanyahu over the hostages. The sooner he goes the better for everyone. However you must recognise that noone in their right mind would expect Israel to accept Hamas as a legitimate government? And as pro palestine protesters keep telling us palestinians are not hamas so any proper deal that is good for ordinary palestinians needs to exclude hamas.

SharonEllis · 04/02/2024 16:54

ProfessorPipsqueak · 04/02/2024 16:41

No sorry I don't agree.

On March 1 was the The Huwara pogram, the violence from Israeli settlers was so brutral that an Israeli commander called it a pogrom.

In June there were 5 days of pograms where gangs of armed settlers, often in the hundreds, descended on 17 different Palestinian villages, lighting dozens of homes and cars on fire and shooting at Palestinian homes. The attacks by Jewish settlers prompted a raid by the Israeli military, which took part in and escalated the violence, turning their weapons on Palestinian residents and preventing critical medical care from reaching the injured.

The violence was escalating all year to prior to Oct 7. The international community had voiced their concerns at the rising level of violence from Israeli settlers and the IDF. Israel approved more and more funding to take more land from Palestinians inciting the violence from the settlers. It was anything but a ceasefire. It was a brutal year for Palestinians.

You're talking about the West Bank, run by the PA. I'm talking about gaza run by Hamas. Two different geographical areas, two different governments, two very different issues. I agree the behaviour of settlers, encouraged by extremists in the government, is a disgrace. Dealing with the illegal settlements has to be part of any wider peace settlement.

ProfessorPipsqueak · 04/02/2024 16:41

SharonEllis · 04/02/2024 16:28

There were also Israelis killed intermittently by Palestinians prior to 7 October, which you fail to mention. There was a ceasefire in the commonly understood meaning of the term. 7/10 was a grotesque escalation which Hamas knew would trigger a massive retaliation.

No sorry I don't agree.

On March 1 was the The Huwara pogram, the violence from Israeli settlers was so brutral that an Israeli commander called it a pogrom.

In June there were 5 days of pograms where gangs of armed settlers, often in the hundreds, descended on 17 different Palestinian villages, lighting dozens of homes and cars on fire and shooting at Palestinian homes. The attacks by Jewish settlers prompted a raid by the Israeli military, which took part in and escalated the violence, turning their weapons on Palestinian residents and preventing critical medical care from reaching the injured.

The violence was escalating all year to prior to Oct 7. The international community had voiced their concerns at the rising level of violence from Israeli settlers and the IDF. Israel approved more and more funding to take more land from Palestinians inciting the violence from the settlers. It was anything but a ceasefire. It was a brutal year for Palestinians.