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Parkingt111 · 10/02/2024 18:57

"Under international humanitarian law, killing a defenceless injured patient who is being treated in a hospital amounts to a war crime," the U.N. experts said in a statement, referring to Basel Al-Ghazzawi, a patient being treated for injuries it said were caused by an Israeli air strike.

"By disguising themselves as seemingly harmless, protected medical personnel and civilians, the Israeli forces also prima facie committed the war crime of perfidy, which is prohibited in all circumstances," they added, calling for Israel to conduct an investigation.

anotherlevel · 02/02/2024 13:38

Sky News - Israel are behaving like terrorists.

www.instagram.com/reel/C214MnxIPv0/?igsh=OTloZGlzZWN5NjR2

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 17:31

inkworks273 · 01/02/2024 09:43

@MercanDede Thanks for the clarification.

Yes. No sign of a struggle, no sign of resisting arrest. Result, bullet went straight through forehead and out the back of the skull, leaving brain, blood and bone fragments in the pillow.

Not as bad as the pillow of Duria, aged 12, killed by a tank shell fired at a Gaza hospital though.

Justpontificating · 01/02/2024 16:24

Desertrose2023 · 01/02/2024 07:34

Super insightful. Whilst you lecture us some more on perfidy and IHL, here is a video of the paralyzed human being whose brain matter was blown all over his hospital pillow by people you call special forces. Others would just call them terrorists.

His name was Bassel Al-Ghazzawi. Aged 18.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2yaj7towCQ/?igsh=MTN4YXgxNHBtNW81Mg==

And the serious hole and deep dent in the pillow of this lads hospital bed that has been shown in above videos clearly show an up close execution
But hey
Lets wait for Israel today it was a mistake

inkworks273 · 01/02/2024 09:43

@MercanDede Thanks for the clarification.

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 09:24

@DownNative
But the United States has targeted hospitals under other situations in the past.

Do you have an example of the US targeting a hospital?

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 09:21

BackandForthRoundandRound · 01/02/2024 09:15

Ahh, I see. Definitely agree with you

Thanks for that.
My concern is that if we get in the habit of saying that the Israeli army “are terrorists” or “are a terrorist army” it cannot be the case legally, and so it is easy to dismiss valid criticism of their use of terrorism on a technicality.

The legally defensible and accurate statement is that “the Israeli army is using illegal terrorism tactics which are war crimes.”

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 09:16

Livinginanotherworld · 01/02/2024 00:09

By the rule of law yes he should have been brought to trial. If nothing else they may have got more information out of him. He was executed and his body gone before anyone could even verify him.
We might not like the law, but it would be a complete free for all without it and civil society will just brea down.

Bin Laden wasn’t “executed” he refused to surrender during a capture or kill mission. His body wasn’t “gone before anyone could verify him” absolute nonsense.

If he had surrendered, he would have been captured, put under arrest and faced trial. He was surrounded by human shields and the six man SEAL team (who were wearing their uniforms, not disguises) and who approached in a military helicopter (not misused civilian transport) and who infiltrated his heavily defended and secure compound (not a hospital) took great care to only killed armed combatants who were shooting at them except for one unarmed woman who was with Bin Laden that lunged towards them and got killed in the cross fire. All the other men, women and many many children he had there as human shields survived.

BackandForthRoundandRound · 01/02/2024 09:15

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 09:12

I am posting the legal nuances.

It is important to understand that the armed forces of recognised nation states can and do unlawfully use terrorism tactics but this does not make them terrorists. It makes them war criminals.

Terrorism isn’t only done by terrorists.

Ahh, I see. Definitely agree with you

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 09:12

BackandForthRoundandRound · 01/02/2024 08:53

Oh my goodness.... seriously. They have been terrorising the Palestinian people. They have been murdering innocents ~ including those who happen to have a white flag. They have bulldozed ~ yes, bulldozed ~ innocents who were camped outside a hospital. They have routinely assaulted young children. (Video proof of that also) Attacked ambulances. Attacked paramedics. Assaulted and killed hospital staff, including doctors. Forced hospital staff at gunpoint to leave premature babies in their hospital beds. (The babies passed away as they were left without any care or indeed anyone around for them to take their last breaths) Video proof exists of this also.

They target civilians and their houses. They raid civilian houses and then decide to nose around their underwear drawers (and film themselves doing so and post it in social media ~ one of whom was a British/Israeli who is back over here and there was a protest around him giving a "talk" to disadvantaged young boys) to film themselves destroying UN schools, hospitals and destroying shops also. Throwing items around and happily smashing them all.

Recording themselves dancing and singing about how they are going to "eradicate" the Palestinians. Boasting about how many children they have killed. They celebrate shooting pregnant women ~ that goes back some years and is also well documented. They target women and children.

They choose to destroy and cause terror to civilians.

I am posting the legal nuances.

It is important to understand that the armed forces of recognised nation states can and do unlawfully use terrorism tactics but this does not make them terrorists. It makes them war criminals.

Terrorism isn’t only done by terrorists.

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 09:05

DownNative · 31/01/2024 16:48

As has been posted before at various points, hospitals are not necessarily protected spaces.

And the presence of protected persons also cannot be used to render an area immune from military operations.

Like I said, we don't currently have enough information. On top of that, it is the ICC which would be the correct forum to determine if this specific case the thread was started can be considered to be a war crime.

That hospital was protected at the time they entered it. Article 19 goes on to say that even if a hospital loses its protected status it is only while there is a threat of immediate lethal attack towards enemy troops coming from the hospital. Even if injured combatants are inside a hospital receiving treatment, the hospital does not lose its protected status.

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 09:01

DownNative · 31/01/2024 16:26

Trying to create a hypothetical where Bin Laden is in a hospital would be playing the Hypothesis Contrary To Fact.

Imaginary events don't change anything about the details or truth of a given situation, so is unhelpful.

But the United States has targeted hospitals under other situations in the past.

As it currently stands, yes, not a lot of credible information is known about this particular operation in the West Bank hospital.

Yet witness pages of confident pronouncements of an Israeli breach of IHL via perfidy.....🤷‍♂️

That’s because what is definitively known is uncontestably a war crime. What is more credible that CCTV showing them going into the hospital, the photos of the aftermath, and the admission from the Israeli government that it was them? Bounce that against the laws of armed conflict and it was a war crime. There is no exception that can be applied.

EasterIssland · 01/02/2024 09:00

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 08:34

The Israeli forces are not terrorists nor can they ever be as they are the military, special or intelligence forces of a recognised nation state that are illegally using terrorism tactics. Their members are lawful combatants who receive the protections of combatants under the Geneva convention. The use of terrorism tactics are war crimes.

Terrorist organisations are unsanctioned illegal groups due to not being the military, special or intelligence forces of a recognised nation state. Their members are unlawful combatants - which is a category of civilian under the Geneva Convention. Terrorists often almost exclusively use terrorism tactics, which are also war crimes. However, Hamas attacking IDF tanks and soldiers that are on the ground in Gaza, or West Bank is not terrorism. Regardless, because they are unlawful combatants, their very existence is illegal unlike the Israeli (or any other government) forces.

They’re not terrorists. However , many of them are people not prepared to be part of the army, they’d be happier if they were an Influencer … and this is what happens when you force people to go to war that they don’t behave like an army member , they kill indiscriminately hoping daddy Israel government covers their deaths. Their members are committing war crimes and ICJ is not happy about this as they’re close to genocide.

BackandForthRoundandRound · 01/02/2024 08:58

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 08:34

The Israeli forces are not terrorists nor can they ever be as they are the military, special or intelligence forces of a recognised nation state that are illegally using terrorism tactics. Their members are lawful combatants who receive the protections of combatants under the Geneva convention. The use of terrorism tactics are war crimes.

Terrorist organisations are unsanctioned illegal groups due to not being the military, special or intelligence forces of a recognised nation state. Their members are unlawful combatants - which is a category of civilian under the Geneva Convention. Terrorists often almost exclusively use terrorism tactics, which are also war crimes. However, Hamas attacking IDF tanks and soldiers that are on the ground in Gaza, or West Bank is not terrorism. Regardless, because they are unlawful combatants, their very existence is illegal unlike the Israeli (or any other government) forces.

They also like to target Palestinian journalists ~ and yes, they were wearing quite obvious Press vests. The surviving Palestinian journalists have spoken out and stated that their Press vests seem to actually make them more of a target. There have been countless videos where journalists have been shot at by snipers.

The illegal settlers have always tended to be backed up by them. Where both act like armed thugs. They dedicate explosives to their children... explosives which are destined to kill and maim other children.

Posting on social media how glad they are to be there to murder. (Yes, there are videos of this behaviour)

They are not the most moral army in the world.

BackandForthRoundandRound · 01/02/2024 08:53

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 08:34

The Israeli forces are not terrorists nor can they ever be as they are the military, special or intelligence forces of a recognised nation state that are illegally using terrorism tactics. Their members are lawful combatants who receive the protections of combatants under the Geneva convention. The use of terrorism tactics are war crimes.

Terrorist organisations are unsanctioned illegal groups due to not being the military, special or intelligence forces of a recognised nation state. Their members are unlawful combatants - which is a category of civilian under the Geneva Convention. Terrorists often almost exclusively use terrorism tactics, which are also war crimes. However, Hamas attacking IDF tanks and soldiers that are on the ground in Gaza, or West Bank is not terrorism. Regardless, because they are unlawful combatants, their very existence is illegal unlike the Israeli (or any other government) forces.

Oh my goodness.... seriously. They have been terrorising the Palestinian people. They have been murdering innocents ~ including those who happen to have a white flag. They have bulldozed ~ yes, bulldozed ~ innocents who were camped outside a hospital. They have routinely assaulted young children. (Video proof of that also) Attacked ambulances. Attacked paramedics. Assaulted and killed hospital staff, including doctors. Forced hospital staff at gunpoint to leave premature babies in their hospital beds. (The babies passed away as they were left without any care or indeed anyone around for them to take their last breaths) Video proof exists of this also.

They target civilians and their houses. They raid civilian houses and then decide to nose around their underwear drawers (and film themselves doing so and post it in social media ~ one of whom was a British/Israeli who is back over here and there was a protest around him giving a "talk" to disadvantaged young boys) to film themselves destroying UN schools, hospitals and destroying shops also. Throwing items around and happily smashing them all.

Recording themselves dancing and singing about how they are going to "eradicate" the Palestinians. Boasting about how many children they have killed. They celebrate shooting pregnant women ~ that goes back some years and is also well documented. They target women and children.

They choose to destroy and cause terror to civilians.

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 08:42

samG76 · 30/01/2024 16:33

I think one of them was a patient and the other two were visiting to plan something (which I don't think was a new flower arrangement for the entrance or a sponsored swim to raise money for the baby unit). At least one of them had a pistol. Quite difficult to arrest people in the circumstances - I suspect it would have led to far more violence and deaths. And I don't think that gunman roaming hospitals are a particularly unusual sight in Jenin.

One was the paralysed man’s brother and the other a close friend. It is alleged they were plotting a terror attack but how? All three were foot soldiers and in different terrorist groups. And what is a paralysed man who is too injured to even be discharged from hospital going to do? It’s merely implausible allegation that the strike was justified to stop a future attack.

Even if them going in was justified to prevent a future attack, they should have gone in wearing their uniforms during business hours, spoken to the hospital director (not wearing them is a war crime) and the two abled men should have been arrested and civilian police placed to monitor the paralysed man in the hospital (killing them all is a war crime).

Where did you see that one of them was armed? All the reports I read was that they were all unarmed and put up no resistance.

MercanDede · 01/02/2024 08:34

inkworks273 · 30/01/2024 16:28

I’m flabbergasted that there are people who don’t think the Israeli forces are terrorists at this point.

The Israeli forces are not terrorists nor can they ever be as they are the military, special or intelligence forces of a recognised nation state that are illegally using terrorism tactics. Their members are lawful combatants who receive the protections of combatants under the Geneva convention. The use of terrorism tactics are war crimes.

Terrorist organisations are unsanctioned illegal groups due to not being the military, special or intelligence forces of a recognised nation state. Their members are unlawful combatants - which is a category of civilian under the Geneva Convention. Terrorists often almost exclusively use terrorism tactics, which are also war crimes. However, Hamas attacking IDF tanks and soldiers that are on the ground in Gaza, or West Bank is not terrorism. Regardless, because they are unlawful combatants, their very existence is illegal unlike the Israeli (or any other government) forces.

Desertrose2023 · 01/02/2024 08:05

inkworks273 · 01/02/2024 07:56

@Desertrose2023 Considering he could barely move and was confined to a hospital bed, I don't see how he could have been an imminent threat. So many videos and evidence of Israeli forces murdering defenceless people.

He clearly wasn’t an imminent threat, yet we have people on here so quick to spread propaganda and justify the cold blooded assassination of a defenseless human being. The double standards and ease with which people quickly lose any sense of morality when it comes to Palestinians is depressing.

OP posts:
Desertrose2023 · 01/02/2024 08:00

Babyboomtastic · 01/02/2024 07:49

He looked so young in that video.

He should have been arrested, not killed. He should have stood trial for any offences he committed AS A CHILD, not summarily executed from a place where he legally and morally should have been safe.

PIJ are not a nice organisation (to put it mildly), but he was a kid, growing up under oppression , joining the same group as his older brother. We don't even know what his crimes are. What we do know is that Israel doesn't use the death penalty in is justice system (only used twice, okay in 1988), and that this boy's offences (if any) were committed when he was a minor.

If he was arrested and found guilty, he would not have been out to death, so how can anyone excuse executing him without trial, from his hospital bed?

100% agree.

Yigal Amir, the 25 year Israeli old man who assassinated the Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Rabin, and someone who could quite plausibly be described as a domestic terrorist, was sentenced to imprisonment not death.

OP posts:
inkworks273 · 01/02/2024 07:56

@Desertrose2023 Considering he could barely move and was confined to a hospital bed, I don't see how he could have been an imminent threat. So many videos and evidence of Israeli forces murdering defenceless people.

Babyboomtastic · 01/02/2024 07:49

Desertrose2023 · 01/02/2024 07:34

Super insightful. Whilst you lecture us some more on perfidy and IHL, here is a video of the paralyzed human being whose brain matter was blown all over his hospital pillow by people you call special forces. Others would just call them terrorists.

His name was Bassel Al-Ghazzawi. Aged 18.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2yaj7towCQ/?igsh=MTN4YXgxNHBtNW81Mg==

He looked so young in that video.

He should have been arrested, not killed. He should have stood trial for any offences he committed AS A CHILD, not summarily executed from a place where he legally and morally should have been safe.

PIJ are not a nice organisation (to put it mildly), but he was a kid, growing up under oppression , joining the same group as his older brother. We don't even know what his crimes are. What we do know is that Israel doesn't use the death penalty in is justice system (only used twice, okay in 1988), and that this boy's offences (if any) were committed when he was a minor.

If he was arrested and found guilty, he would not have been out to death, so how can anyone excuse executing him without trial, from his hospital bed?

Desertrose2023 · 01/02/2024 07:34

DownNative · 31/01/2024 17:15

Perfidy is classed as a crime because it breaks down the distinction between civilians and combatants in conflicts.

It's essentially a situation where combatants disguise themselves as, say, civilians in some manner in order to gain an unfair advantage in conflicts.

But simply disguising oneself as a civilian isn't in and of itself enough to qualify as perfidy. Undercover operations under both International Humanitarian Law (military) and International Human Rights Law (police) aren't explicitly prohibited.

So perfidy involves significantly more than the mere act of disguising as a civilian, to give an example.

Like I said before, I really wouldn't speculate on precisely what happened in Ibn Sina Hospital. There's too many variables to consider. And a lack of detail.

But you can clearly see the automatic really quick to condemn posts in this thread ahead of information. I've seen this kind of reaction before in other special forces operations and those who are really quick very rarely come to accept what actually happened later on which can be years down the line. In the example I've got in mind, nearly 10 years down the line.

Credible information won't be forthcoming any time soon, I wager.

Super insightful. Whilst you lecture us some more on perfidy and IHL, here is a video of the paralyzed human being whose brain matter was blown all over his hospital pillow by people you call special forces. Others would just call them terrorists.

His name was Bassel Al-Ghazzawi. Aged 18.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2yaj7towCQ/?igsh=MTN4YXgxNHBtNW81Mg==

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2yaj7towCQ/?igsh=MTN4YXgxNHBtNW81Mg==

OP posts:
Livinginanotherworld · 01/02/2024 00:09

SomeCatFromJapan · 30/01/2024 14:34

Thing is the US does similar, they also carry out targeted stikes and drone strikes. Would you allay that Bin Laden was unlawfully executed, for instance? Should he have been arrested and brought to trial instead?

By the rule of law yes he should have been brought to trial. If nothing else they may have got more information out of him. He was executed and his body gone before anyone could even verify him.
We might not like the law, but it would be a complete free for all without it and civil society will just brea down.

hogmanayhoolie · 31/01/2024 18:11

Sorry you feel that way @BackandForthRoundandRound

It was a genuine question

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