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Conflict in the Middle East

Aid workers accused of taking part on 7/10 attack on Israel - appalling !

412 replies

Lanabigbanana · 27/01/2024 18:02

https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/serious-allegations-against-unrwa-staff-gaza-strip

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-palestinian-refugee-agency-investigates-staff-suspected-role-israel-attacks-2024-01-26/

From the Guardian 5 hours ago;

"UK suspends UNRWA support after Israeli allegations The UK has temporarily paused future funding of UNRWA, saying it is “appalled by allegations that UNRWA staff were involved in the 7 October attack against Israel”.
A statement sent to the Guardian by the UK’s foreign, commonwealth and development office said:
'The UK is appalled by allegations that UNRWA staff were involved in the 7 October attack against Israel, a heinous act of terrorism that the UK government has repeatedly condemned.

The UK is temporarily pausing any future funding of UNRWA whilst we review these concerning allegations.'

We remain committed to getting humanitarian aid to the people in Gaza who desperately need it."

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44
Lanabigbanana · 31/01/2024 09:21

You are conflating 'occupation' with the subject of 'settlements'.

I agree that building settlements was wrong.

This issue should have been raised by the government there.

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Desertrose2023 · 31/01/2024 09:21

Tuile · 31/01/2024 09:16

You make it sound really simple. Have Israel ever tried ending the occupation? From Israel’s point of view, why is this not happening?

It is simple. That is the position under international law. The end of the occupation is not happening because the bottom line is that there is a significant proportion of Israeli society that think “Judea and Samaria” (as they like to call it) and the Gaza Strip are the God given right of the Jewish people, and it is their duty to occupy and settle it. They have been aided and abetted by various Israeli governments for decades.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/29/israeli-ministers-attend-conference-calling-for-voluntary-migration-of-palestinians

Israeli ministers attend conference calling for ‘voluntary migration’ of Palestinians | Israel | The Guardian

Attendance of 11 cabinet ministers and 15 coalition members of Knesset appears to violate ICJ ruling on Gaza war

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/29/israeli-ministers-attend-conference-calling-for-voluntary-migration-of-palestinians

Tuile · 31/01/2024 09:16

Desertrose2023 · 31/01/2024 09:12

I am merely stating the correct position with regard to Israel’s right to “self defence” under international law, as confirmed by the ICJ.

What I would prefer is the third option that you’ve conveniently omitted, which is for Israel to end its decades long occupation and system of apartheid. I think you’ll find that, as opposed to its current genocidal campaign, may do wonders for Israel’s own peace and security.

You make it sound really simple. Have Israel ever tried ending the occupation? From Israel’s point of view, why is this not happening?

Lanabigbanana · 31/01/2024 09:16

BackandForthRoundandRound · 31/01/2024 08:59

Clearly that aid has been needed for the Palestinian people.

Gaza was under the direct control of Egypt from 1949 - 1968.

Are you saying that Egypt denied the Gazans Aid? If so that is nothing to do with Israel.

Gaza was under the direct control of Israel from 1968 - 2005.

Israel helped build up and support a market gardening industry at that time that exported flowers and fruit internationally.

So, far from denying them Aid Israel was helping them to rebuild Gaza.

When the Israelis left Gaza they also left some of the green houses and other equipment.

https://www.fruitnet.com/fresh-produce-journal/greenhouse-handover-in-gaza/137077.article

The response of the Palestinians was to trash them.

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna9331863

So as I see it Palestinians were authors of their own misfortune. They had a chance to continue with a fledgling and thriving economy, but chose to squander that chance.

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Tuile · 31/01/2024 09:14

I recommend an experiment for everyone on this thread. Write your post and then before you press ‘post’ read it through and think “what if I’m wrong? What is the evidence against what I’m saying? What would a good faith rebuttal of my point look like?” Then maybe edit a bit.

Because I guarantee anyone who can’t even think about what they might have wrong is likely missing some nuance.

Desertrose2023 · 31/01/2024 09:12

SomeCatFromJapan · 31/01/2024 08:46

Israel is an illegal occupier. It does not have a right to self defence under international law.

So according to your take, are you suggesting that Israelis let themselves get slaughtered en masses, or pack up and flee in their millions?
Because without self defence those are the two remaining options.
Which one would you prefer for them?

I am merely stating the correct position with regard to Israel’s right to “self defence” under international law, as confirmed by the ICJ.

What I would prefer is the third option that you’ve conveniently omitted, which is for Israel to end its decades long occupation and system of apartheid. I think you’ll find that, as opposed to its current genocidal campaign, may do wonders for Israel’s own peace and security.

BackandForthRoundandRound · 31/01/2024 08:59

Lanabigbanana · 31/01/2024 08:56

It isn't an 'illegal occupation' and you know that

Really? No, not at all....

BackandForthRoundandRound · 31/01/2024 08:59

Lanabigbanana · 31/01/2024 08:55

What has been 'going on' that you refer to?

Clearly that aid has been needed for the Palestinian people.

Lanabigbanana · 31/01/2024 08:56

BackandForthRoundandRound · 31/01/2024 08:54

But that isn't an answer to what I asked....

It isn't an 'illegal occupation' and you know that

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Lanabigbanana · 31/01/2024 08:55

BackandForthRoundandRound · 31/01/2024 08:52

What makes no sense?

What has been 'going on' that you refer to?

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BackandForthRoundandRound · 31/01/2024 08:54

Lanabigbanana · 31/01/2024 08:53

Well, no-one shouted 'occupation!' when Jordan illegally annexed it in 1950.

But when Israel took it after the Yom Kippur War, everyone started jumping up and down.

So it's OK for Arabs to 'occupy' land but not Jews?

Double standards, methinks.

Hmmmmm....

But that isn't an answer to what I asked....

ConnieCounter · 31/01/2024 08:54

Lanabigbanana · 31/01/2024 00:56

This is down to Hamas and not Israel.

We all know that Hamas repurposes some goods coming in to Gaza to make weapons, so Israel has a right to check what's coming in.
They have also been smuggling in arms for years.

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/01/23/egypt-claims-it-destroyed-hamas-tunnels-but-smuggling-continues/

Israel has a right to defend itself, and the International community agree with that.

Unfortunately it is civilians who suffer.

No, it's down to Israel. Bad things Israel does are Israel's fault. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept for some.

Lanabigbanana · 31/01/2024 08:53

BackandForthRoundandRound · 31/01/2024 08:46

"Yet, when Israel captured the stolen territory in 1967, the world suddenly screamed "occupation." (!)

So does that mean that everyone who recognises it as an occupation is wrong, then?

Is that really what you are saying?

Well, no-one shouted 'occupation!' when Jordan illegally annexed it in 1950.

But when Israel took it after the Yom Kippur War, everyone started jumping up and down.

So it's OK for Arabs to 'occupy' land but not Jews?

Double standards, methinks.

Hmmmmm....

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BackandForthRoundandRound · 31/01/2024 08:53

SomeCatFromJapan · 31/01/2024 08:46

Israel is an illegal occupier. It does not have a right to self defence under international law.

So according to your take, are you suggesting that Israelis let themselves get slaughtered en masses, or pack up and flee in their millions?
Because without self defence those are the two remaining options.
Which one would you prefer for them?

The same could be said for the Palestinian people....

BackandForthRoundandRound · 31/01/2024 08:52

Lanabigbanana · 31/01/2024 08:48

@BackandForthRoundandRound
"You are aware that Hamas didn't exist all of the many years that this has been going on for?"

That makes no sense, How what years are you talking about?

What makes no sense?

Lanabigbanana · 31/01/2024 08:48

@BackandForthRoundandRound
"You are aware that Hamas didn't exist all of the many years that this has been going on for?"

That makes no sense, How what years are you talking about?

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SomeCatFromJapan · 31/01/2024 08:46

Israel is an illegal occupier. It does not have a right to self defence under international law.

So according to your take, are you suggesting that Israelis let themselves get slaughtered en masses, or pack up and flee in their millions?
Because without self defence those are the two remaining options.
Which one would you prefer for them?

BackandForthRoundandRound · 31/01/2024 08:46

Lanabigbanana · 31/01/2024 08:13

@Desertrose2023 "Israel is an illegal occupier. It does not have a right to self defence under international law."

😆😆😆

https://www.jns.org/the-truth-about-israels-occupation-its-legal-its-moral-and-its-not-an-occupation/

Please note ;-
According to international law, an occupation is when one country takes over the sovereign territory of another country. But Judea and Samaria was never legally part of another country. Certainly, the Palestinian Arabs never owned or controlled it. Instead, it was unlawfully seized by Jordan during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.
In 1950, Jordan formally annexed Judea and Samaria, renaming it the West Bank. The annexation was almost universally rejected by the international community, though no one suggested that Jordan illegally occupied the territory. Yet, when Israel captured the stolen territory in 1967, the world suddenly screamed “occupation.” ( ! )

I think you need to check your history instead of spreading misinformation and inflammatory rhetoric.

"Yet, when Israel captured the stolen territory in 1967, the world suddenly screamed "occupation." (!)

So does that mean that everyone who recognises it as an occupation is wrong, then?

Is that really what you are saying?

BackandForthRoundandRound · 31/01/2024 08:43

Lanabigbanana · 31/01/2024 08:22

@BackandForthRoundandRound This is an attempt to justify aid being prevented from reaching the Palestinian population.

It's certainly slowing it down, but it's not preventing it. Maybe if Hamas hadn't spent years stealing Aid it wouldn't be necessary ?

Posting this as though it is factual is really quite terrible.

It is a fact. It's also a fact that Hamas created this situation, not Israel.

Hamas are such a jolly bunch aren't they ?

https://www.hrw.org/news/2007/06/12/gaza-armed-palestinian-groups-commit-grave-crimes

"Maybe if Hamas hadn't spent years stealing Aid it wouldn't be necessary" is yet another claim that is an attempt to minimise what has been done to Palestine by Israel all of these years. It is an attempt to take the focus off of that, along with the blame, and put it at them.

You are aware that Hamas didn't exist all of the many years that this has been going on for?

So it couldn't be them stealing aid before as they did not exist.

Palestine should not be forced to be in this situation at all and the fact it has lasted for all of these years is utterly shameful.

BackandForthRoundandRound · 31/01/2024 08:39

Lanabigbanana · 31/01/2024 08:22

@BackandForthRoundandRound This is an attempt to justify aid being prevented from reaching the Palestinian population.

It's certainly slowing it down, but it's not preventing it. Maybe if Hamas hadn't spent years stealing Aid it wouldn't be necessary ?

Posting this as though it is factual is really quite terrible.

It is a fact. It's also a fact that Hamas created this situation, not Israel.

Hamas are such a jolly bunch aren't they ?

https://www.hrw.org/news/2007/06/12/gaza-armed-palestinian-groups-commit-grave-crimes

That is what you are doing... you are simply repeating the line claiming that Hamas are stealing aid etc and doing so at a time when there are people conveniently blocking the crossings (after Israel have been told to allow aid in ~ what timing) who are also coming out with the same line is a deliberate attempt to justify starving innocent people.

Imagine being so proud of trying to prevent aid from reaching innocent women, men and children. I will never understand some people.

Palestine has been under seige for a very long time. The list of items on the banned list has grown enormously over time and includes some very questionable items. One country dictating what another country is allowed in is completely wrong particularly in this day and age. Nothing gets away from that fact.

You can link to all the questionable articles that you want... It is the age-old line that oh no, Hamas steals aid. The gathering of people blocking the aid lorries repeat this along with stating that they should not be allowed any at all. Some add until the hostages are returned. Which is a very interesting remark as then they would also be without food and so on.

It is so ingrained in some people that they are unable to see the truths. Much the same as their ingrained hatred.

Lanabigbanana · 31/01/2024 08:28

@Desertrose2023 Another history lesson here ;-

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/15/israel4

as I said in my previous post, what a jolly bunch Hamas are. (Sarcasm)

"Last night, Hamas said it had executed the top Fatah militant in Gaza, Samih al-Madhoun.
Witnesses said the conquest of the security headquarters was followed by many executions."

Hamas takes control of Gaza

Hamas fighters today basked in triumph after taking complete control in Gaza as the west scrambled for a response to the arrival of Islamist power on Israel's doorstep.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/15/israel4

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Desertrose2023 · 31/01/2024 08:26

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Lanabigbanana · 31/01/2024 08:22

@BackandForthRoundandRound This is an attempt to justify aid being prevented from reaching the Palestinian population.

It's certainly slowing it down, but it's not preventing it. Maybe if Hamas hadn't spent years stealing Aid it wouldn't be necessary ?

Posting this as though it is factual is really quite terrible.

It is a fact. It's also a fact that Hamas created this situation, not Israel.

Hamas are such a jolly bunch aren't they ?

https://www.hrw.org/news/2007/06/12/gaza-armed-palestinian-groups-commit-grave-crimes

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Lanabigbanana · 31/01/2024 08:13

@Desertrose2023 "Israel is an illegal occupier. It does not have a right to self defence under international law."

😆😆😆

https://www.jns.org/the-truth-about-israels-occupation-its-legal-its-moral-and-its-not-an-occupation/

Please note ;-
According to international law, an occupation is when one country takes over the sovereign territory of another country. But Judea and Samaria was never legally part of another country. Certainly, the Palestinian Arabs never owned or controlled it. Instead, it was unlawfully seized by Jordan during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.
In 1950, Jordan formally annexed Judea and Samaria, renaming it the West Bank. The annexation was almost universally rejected by the international community, though no one suggested that Jordan illegally occupied the territory. Yet, when Israel captured the stolen territory in 1967, the world suddenly screamed “occupation.” ( ! )

I think you need to check your history instead of spreading misinformation and inflammatory rhetoric.

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