Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Can you be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic?

208 replies

TrigTannet · 26/01/2024 22:57

I’m inclined to think the answer is no, but I’ve seen a lot of people on here recently attempting to say that they’re not antisemitic, they’re just anti-Zionism. I would love to hear someone explain how they imagine that works.

As I understand it, Zionism is a political ideology which says that Jews should have self determination in their homeland. Many minority indigenous peoples want, and have, some level of self determination, from fully sovereign states to devolution or reserves with different laws. The world overwhelmingly supports that. What is the moral argument against self determination for Jews?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
25milesfromhome · 27/01/2024 00:23

the few Palestinians that are left there @NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 there are nearly 5 million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, do you consider that a few?
By your definition would you also consider the whole of the USA and Australia to be massive illegal settlements because the land was taken by force from the indigenous inhabitants, who continue to be oppressed to this day?

NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 · 27/01/2024 00:20

TrigTannet · 27/01/2024 00:13

@NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 Are you seriously suggesting that no country other than Israel has / is illegally occupying another? Tibet? Ukraine?

Also, where do you think Jews are indigenous to? Arabs come from the Arabian peninsular and have been occupying that part of the world for a very long time, but that doesn’t make them indigenous. Do you think white Australians are indigenous to Australia, or have they not been there long enough yet?! How long do you have to occupy somewhere before the indigenous people loose their claim to it? Obviously that doesn’t mean Palestinians should be murdered, but it does explain why Israel should exist there, even without their consent. Do you also think it was an equally terrible crime for all of the countries who fought for independence from the British empire to become independent too, because Britain had occupied some of them for ages. Or is it only Jews who lost their right to their homeland by being replaced by a long line of occupying forces who somehow became the only rightful owners?

So now you're saying if I was indigenous to let's say Spain but I'm born and brought up in the UK that gives me the right to go back to Spain occupy the land and forcibly remove people from there to make way for myself? That's ridiculous right? I'm sorry but all the Jews who were killed through out world war 1&2 are you telling me they came from Palestine? No right ? They came from Europe, majority Germany/Austria/Poland etc. The indigenous argument is probably what all those in the Israeli army mutters to themselves before they go out on a child murdering spree. You can't argue with a brick wall and you are the Great Wall of China.

Chicaontour · 27/01/2024 00:19

I am anti genocide and I firmly believe that the Israeli government are guilty of war crimes ( as do the Court in Haague). Anti semetic does not mean the inability to criticise the Israeli government in the same way I would criticise my own Irish government. I do not criticise their actions because they are Jewish, I openly criticise them as they are guilty of the most recent genocide of 25,000 Palestinians. COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT IS A WAR CRIME.

Original poster
TrigTannet · 27/01/2024 00:13

@NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 Are you seriously suggesting that no country other than Israel has / is illegally occupying another? Tibet? Ukraine?

Also, where do you think Jews are indigenous to? Arabs come from the Arabian peninsular and have been occupying that part of the world for a very long time, but that doesn’t make them indigenous. Do you think white Australians are indigenous to Australia, or have they not been there long enough yet?! How long do you have to occupy somewhere before the indigenous people loose their claim to it? Obviously that doesn’t mean Palestinians should be murdered, but it does explain why Israel should exist there, even without their consent. Do you also think it was an equally terrible crime for all of the countries who fought for independence from the British empire to become independent too, because Britain had occupied some of them for ages. Or is it only Jews who lost their right to their homeland by being replaced by a long line of occupying forces who somehow became the only rightful owners?

OP posts:
NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 · 27/01/2024 00:09

Flyhigher · 27/01/2024 00:05

It's not that Jews don't deserve self determinism- it's that Zionists have driven Palestinians off their land and made them suffer. Some Jews and some people don't think that's right. Doesn't make either of those groups antisemitic. But does make them anti Zionist.
Zionists and Jews are not the same thing. My husband is a Jew but not a Zionist.

I agree with this. I am against the Israeli government. I am not against Jews. I am against those people who have forced Palestinians off the land that belongs to them. I am against the murderous acts against women, children and men regardless of the side. There's a lot of "people have the right to defend what's theirs". Why is there an outcry when the Palestinians are fighting for that very same right!!!!!

Flyhigher · 27/01/2024 00:05

It's not that Jews don't deserve self determinism- it's that Zionists have driven Palestinians off their land and made them suffer. Some Jews and some people don't think that's right. Doesn't make either of those groups antisemitic. But does make them anti Zionist.
Zionists and Jews are not the same thing. My husband is a Jew but not a Zionist.

NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 · 27/01/2024 00:03

TrigTannet · 26/01/2024 23:56

@NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 Israel quite simple was established. There was UN agreement on it at the time. I don’t know what other word you would use. It was more legally legitimised than the formation of any other new modern states. Usually there’s just a huge war and the winners say “we’re a country now”. The losers don’t get a say and the rest of the world carries on without a glance.
The other minorities being expelled around the world were also not consenting to it (ie all of the Jews from Arab nations who were forced out of their homes and the Europeans being moved around to “tidy up the borders”). Why is this case uniquely different? I think it’s antisemitism, hence why I started the thread!

Edited

I disagree. How many countries do you know have illegal settlements within them? None right? Other than "israel". Because they forcibly took what was not theirs. Some bullshit agreement was made to keep those people happy. None of the people who that land belonged to agreed to splitting the country. It was taken from their bare hands by force. And now they're ridding Palestine of the few Palestinians that are left there in which I can only describe as a genocide. Open your eyes people who are the real "anti" whatever in that equation. And whoever the little genius is who says above it was not called Palestine before it was Palestine. My dear friend it was most definitely not Israel at any point in history.

Original poster
TrigTannet · 26/01/2024 23:56

@NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 Israel quite simple was established. There was UN agreement on it at the time. I don’t know what other word you would use. It was more legally legitimised than the formation of any other new modern states. Usually there’s just a huge war and the winners say “we’re a country now”. The losers don’t get a say and the rest of the world carries on without a glance.
The other minorities being expelled around the world were also not consenting to it (ie all of the Jews from Arab nations who were forced out of their homes and the Europeans being moved around to “tidy up the borders”). Why is this case uniquely different? I think it’s antisemitism, hence why I started the thread!

OP posts:
25milesfromhome · 26/01/2024 23:55

I’m inclined to think the answer is no

Your inclination is entirely correct. Unfortunately, any thread with the word Zionism, Jews or Antisemitism in the title will largely attract posters keen to grandstand their total ignorance and bigotry about all three of these things so buckle up.

localnotail · 26/01/2024 23:52

NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 · 26/01/2024 23:50

Israel was never "established". Palestine never agreed to splitting their soil. Thanks to the UK & US they forcibly took it anyway. What do you think this war is actually about?

Show quote history

There was never a country called Palestine. It literally never existed.

Original poster
TrigTannet · 26/01/2024 23:52

I don’t think it’s reasonable to say “I posted 2 articles so the thread is over”. I think your analogy is wrong, so I told you why. Conventionally you would respond by defending your point.

To me it seems like a false analogy. Like saying “I don’t hate Christians, I just think they shouldn’t be allowed to have a Christian country and all of the Christian countries should be run by Muslims instead.” Do you see why it’s absurd now?

OP posts:
NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 · 26/01/2024 23:50

TrigTannet · 26/01/2024 23:41

@SalutDecorum It seems like you’re implying that it is Israel’s fault that they have had to defend themselves from attacks by Palestinians and other Arab nations since the day the country was established. What do you think they should do / should have done differently?

At the same time Israel was formed, hundreds of thousands of minorities were being moved around Europe too. And of course almost all of the Jews of the Arab world were expelled to Israel. Today no one knows for example which Germans are descended from Sudetan Germans who were deported to Germany because they’re full, normal citizens. It seems to me that the situation would be better if they had forcibly relocated all of the Muslims of Transjordan to the Muslim part before Britain withdrew. By now they’d be perfectly normal Jordanian citizens living perfectly normal lives. Obviously no winding back the clock though.

Israel was never "established". Palestine never agreed to splitting their soil. Thanks to the UK & US they forcibly took it anyway. What do you think this war is actually about?

localnotail · 26/01/2024 23:50

Its hard to have a discussion with someone who is not open to discussion. I have seen, sadly, a massive rise in antisemitism, covered up with a fig leaf of "I actually hate Zionists, not all Jews". No amount of patronising "love" and "sweetheart" will cover up the gloat of someone who is finally allowed to display their hate freely.

SalutDecorum · 26/01/2024 23:47

TrigTannet · 26/01/2024 23:45

@SalutDecorum I think a closer analogy would be to say “I don’t hate Germans, I just think they don’t deserve a country and should all die / go somewhere else where they’re likely to be murdered.” Nazism has nothing to do with it. Zionism is not a political party, its belief in a nation state.

So you didn't read the two articles that put this to bed then. Cool.

Have fun tilting at windmills, love. I'll be over there, ignoring you.

SalutDecorum · 26/01/2024 23:46

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Your non-sequiturs a tad tiresome. I didn't think my point was a "hurr, I can also bring up examples and bigotry". Like, great. What's your point? Mine wasn't my argument. That was addressed in the article that someone else decided to respond with something totally unrelated.

localnotail · 26/01/2024 23:45

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Sweetheart, do keep up

Original poster
TrigTannet · 26/01/2024 23:45

@SalutDecorum I think a closer analogy would be to say “I don’t hate Germans, I just think they don’t deserve a country and should all die / go somewhere else where they’re likely to be murdered.” Nazism has nothing to do with it. Zionism is not a political party, its belief in a nation state.

OP posts:
localnotail · 26/01/2024 23:45

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SalutDecorum · 26/01/2024 23:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SalutDecorum · 26/01/2024 23:42

localnotail · 26/01/2024 23:42

These are extremists. I can find you some lovely footage of Islamist extremists, too. Do they represent all Muslims? No.

Show quote history

Okay? Great?

SalutDecorum · 26/01/2024 23:42

TrigTannet · 26/01/2024 23:41

@SalutDecorum It seems like you’re implying that it is Israel’s fault that they have had to defend themselves from attacks by Palestinians and other Arab nations since the day the country was established. What do you think they should do / should have done differently?

At the same time Israel was formed, hundreds of thousands of minorities were being moved around Europe too. And of course almost all of the Jews of the Arab world were expelled to Israel. Today no one knows for example which Germans are descended from Sudetan Germans who were deported to Germany because they’re full, normal citizens. It seems to me that the situation would be better if they had forcibly relocated all of the Muslims of Transjordan to the Muslim part before Britain withdrew. By now they’d be perfectly normal Jordanian citizens living perfectly normal lives. Obviously no winding back the clock though.

Read the ICJ ruling. There is no self-defence for an occupying power against a non-state entity.

localnotail · 26/01/2024 23:42

SalutDecorum · 26/01/2024 23:34

Think of it this way. You can be anti-Nazi and not anti-German. I can be anti-Wahhabist and not anti-Islam. I can appreciate nuance, which is greatly eroded when the automatic shutdown from the Israeli government and military is any disagreement means you hate Jews.

This is what Zionism gets you. https://x.com/TorahJudaism/status/1719741630763159672?s=20

Show quote history

These are extremists. I can find you some lovely footage of Islamist extremists, too. Do they represent all Muslims? No.

SalutDecorum · 26/01/2024 23:41

localnotail · 26/01/2024 23:38

I literally don't understand what are you trying to say? Some powerful deflection is going on here. But I can play this game, too. Read up on SA here ))
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2022/country-chapters/south-africa

I

Edited
Show quote history

What the hell has South Africa got to do with any of this?

Original poster
TrigTannet · 26/01/2024 23:41

@SalutDecorum It seems like you’re implying that it is Israel’s fault that they have had to defend themselves from attacks by Palestinians and other Arab nations since the day the country was established. What do you think they should do / should have done differently?

At the same time Israel was formed, hundreds of thousands of minorities were being moved around Europe too. And of course almost all of the Jews of the Arab world were expelled to Israel. Today no one knows for example which Germans are descended from Sudetan Germans who were deported to Germany because they’re full, normal citizens. It seems to me that the situation would be better if they had forcibly relocated all of the Muslims of Transjordan to the Muslim part before Britain withdrew. By now they’d be perfectly normal Jordanian citizens living perfectly normal lives. Obviously no winding back the clock though.

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread