Can you be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic?

Both Jews and Palestinians have valid indigenous and historical claims to the land.

Jews were expelled from Israel 2000 years ago! Most people have no issue with the idea of Jewish state and right to self determination. But to claim that they have the right to chuck the Palestinians off en masse and settle the land with European and American Jews is quite frankly nuts and I can see no justification for that. Imagine if all the Americans with Irish ancestry from 200 years ago decided they wanted to return to their family seats/farms/estates/houses and just chucked the inhabitants out violently. People would rightly think they were gaga. That’s what Israel have done. Except it’s even more gaga because those people have had no claim to anything for 2000 years, not 200.

On the same vein, I haven't seen anyone on here who wants Palestine to be occupied and supports illegal settlements in the West Bank and Jerusalem. People seem to assume that everyone who speaks in the support of Israel continuing to exist (Zionism) are genocidal racists.

I would imagine most people who say they’re anti-Zionist actually mean they are anti-occupation/settler rather than Israel shouldn’t exist. I haven’t seen anyone on this forum arguing in favour of the latter?

Yes of course you can be Anti-Zionist and not Anti-semitic. How scary and dangerous, this recent attempt to conflate the two in order to deflect any attempt at criticism of Israel, an ethno-state that practices apartheid.

Zionism means different things to different people. Your articulation of Zionism @TrigTannet just meaning a homeland for Jewish people who have the right to self determination is a very basic one, which I believe most people would not oppose, particularly given the persecution faced by Jewish people over thousands of years, particularly in Europe.

The current form of Zionism, which has given us the state of Israel, is a form of racism in my view. People may disagree but that is a legitimate and protected political belief. It does not mean I hold any hatred towards Jewish people, their religion, culture, or Jews as an ethnic group. This view is also shared by others including some Jewish people and it should not be dismissed as anti semitic just because there are those who wish to try and censor criticism of Israel.

If you are genuinely interested in this topic, I would strongly suggest you watch the film “Israelism” , a film by Jewish Americans, to see what modern day Zionism means and how has been used to justify the oppression of another people, who also have the right to self determination and their own homeland.

https://www.israelismfilm.com/

you can rent it for a nominal amount

https://kinema.com/events/israelism-worldwide-rental-tdqdt3

@NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 Ah, you’re one of those do your own research, MSM is lying to you people.
It really is ok for you to take some time out from here and come back when you’re a bit more educated on the subject. There’s a lot of information out there, but some of it is a bit more complicated than those catchy little infographics or 30 second Tiktoks so I understand it can be challenging.

You're not brainwashed if you want peace. You're brainwashed if you're putting up an argument for war to continue.

You say education, I say brainwashing. The lines can get very blurred.

I don't agree with how the Israeli state has come about. I don't agree with the force and huge loss of life that has come with it at the cost of many many many innocent people. Like I have said I am not against Jews this is not what I've suggested at any point. I am against how the government is targeting and has continued targeting innocent civilians. It's just absolutely not right. On either side not just one or the other. The lack of peaceful living is my main frustration.

@25milesfromhome If I was being completely cynical, and going by the other posts, it kind of does. IYSWIM.

This really doesn’t make any sense at all.

Ah that's right. "Educated". Rich. Very rich.

Unable to formulate an educated argument so resorting to insults already? Very much the refuge of the small minded.

And those very same little minded people are the cause of the violence and hate that's spewed in this awful world because they cannot see or understand things for what they very really truly are.

Clearly.

Jews and Palestinians DID live in peace and harmony until they decided to drag them out of the very homes they were given refuge in.

Ah, you’re one of those historical revisionists.

Trying to shrug them off as accusations does not make you right or your argument righteous. Like I said as soon as you bring these completely valid "accusations" to light in front of a supporter they will cry antisemitism. Israel IS committing genocide. Israel IS illegally occupying land. Israel IS committing war crimes. And to answer the OPs question, you can be against the government but not the people. But little minded people will not see that differently. And those very same little minded people are the cause of the violence and hate that's spewed in this awful world because they cannot see or understand things for what they very really truly are. Jews and Palestinians DID live in peace and harmony until they decided to drag them out of the very homes they were given refuge in.

But it's true what they say, one day the oppressed becomes the oppressor. And in this case it's worse than what the nazis did because there is no army to fight back.

@NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 You don't appear to have any knowledge of what the Nazis did.

I wasn't going to comment on this thread but this racist bile can't stand any more. It needs to end @MNHQ

The establishment of Israel in 1948 was done immorally and unethically. That doesn't mean Jewish people aren't indigenous to Israel, as even Ashkenazi Jews have genetic patriarchal ties to Canaan, despite being "Eastern European". The diaspora of Jewish people is massive due to centuries of persecution and genocide. It is also important to note that Israel does legally exist as an official state (which was offered for Palestine and turned down by Arab leaders). Most of those who live in Israel now were born there. It is their home. Just like Palestine is the home of Palestinians who were born in Palestine.

The thing that most "Zionists" believe is that Israel is the only Jewish state in the entire world and exists purely so that Jewish people can live in a majority free of antisemitism and persecution. Zionism to most people is the idea that the Jewish homeland should exist and has a right to continue to exist. There doesn't need to be any killing of Palestinians. There simply needs to be safety for those in Israel; unfortunately, Hamas' goal is to get rid of Israel as well as Jewish people worldwide (according to many of their leaders).

It isn't right to kick out today's Israelis because in 1948 the British and the Americans designated what was Palestinian land to Jewish people in seek of refuge. Today's Israelis are not to blame for the Palestinians' displacement (save for the West Bank and Jerusalem, which should be immediately given back to the Palestinians). It also isn't right for the Israeli government to occupy Palestine and treat Palestinians as nomads and second-class citizens, simply for being born Palestinian.

I don't think Zionism is evil. I think extremism is. I don't think anti-Zionism is antisemitic, but I do think many antisemitic people use "anti-Zionism" as a cover.

@TrigTannet this thread will also attract the requisite amount of genocide accusations, blood libel and just bracing for the inevitable Holocaust inversion, because apparently it’s impossible to have a discussion about antisemitism and Zionism without keeping these things first and foremost in a conversation about Jewish rights to self determination and a homeland.

Both Jews and Palestinians have valid indigenous and historical claims to the land.

ETA ding ding! I see I didn’t have to brace for that long.

@NeedAllTheHelpICanGet1 Compared to the population of Israel?

And yes 5 million is bladdy well a few. It's not even half the population of London.