Can you be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic?

What's happening in Gaza is dreadful. But it doesn't even remotely resemble "some version" of the Holocaust.

HTH https://www.het.org.uk/

Live together in peace I meant.

It's not antisemitic. It's anti Zionist and pro human. Do you think the treatment of 2 million in Gaza is ok? Anyway forget it. You guys think it's all ok. It's not. The Holocast was horrendous. This situation now is awful too. I hope one day there is peace and all people can love together. Omg. I sound like John Lennon.

I have no problem with Zionism that supports a two state solution MooseBreath.

Can I just politely remind people that "drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis" is antisemitic.

And what is happening is Gaza, let us not forget, is a direct consequence of the awfulness of what happened to Jews (and others) in Israel on 7th October.

Yes, the USA and Canada were established by 1948, but both had indigenous populations being oppressed at that time. Canada still had "residential schools" into the '90s. Natives were murdered, children taken away from their families and made to confirm to Western language and culture, abused and mistreated to the point that they could no longer communicate with their own immediate families or recall their culture. Yet nobody even blinked and felt that either country was in the wrong for colonizing the land, establishing laws, building infrastructure, and effectively shunning the indigenous cultures in favour of Western ideals. The USA and Canada are now making small gestures to the indigenous communities, but face no calls for the countries to cease existing and "go back where they came from".

Israel was officially established more recently than the USA and Canada. Yes, its establishment was hugely problematic, as were all countries formed on the backs of colonialism. But only Israel is targeted repeatedly by all of it's neighbours purely because of the ethnicity of its people (despite being hugely varied). It has put up with daily rocket attacks for decades, but it isn't publicized because of the huge amount of infrastructure they have to deal with the hatred of other nations. And now the West is turning on them, saying that they cannot defend themselves against terrorists organizations who hide amongst civilians and use human shields, and who are in many cases even denying the massacre that befell innocent civilians. No other country is expected to lay down and accept this.

I am not condoning Israel's carpet-bombing. It is disgraceful, inhumane, and ineffective. I am not condoning the oppression and occupation of Palestinian land. It is immoral, illegal, and absolutely needs to stop immediately. Netanyahu's government needs to be removed and its leaders should face prison for their murderous actions.

But Zionism does not mean the genocide of Palestinians. Blanket-hating Zionism with no separation between extremists and those merely supporting a Jewish homeland (Israel's right to exist) is antisemitic.

And I see your stance is also entrenched.

I have a desert rose incidentally, it's a beautiful but fragile thing. The world is full of wonders.

The accusations of “Israel being held to a higher standards” make me laugh. If anything, Israel has been held to a much lesser standard and has been allowed to get away with far more because of Europe’s guilt over its atrocities towards Jewish people. Israel’s history of brutality towards Palestinians spans decades. It is still being protected, even now, by a superpower and powerful western nations despite:

• the ICJ ruling it’s actions in Gaza constitute a plausible risk of genocide

• independent human rights organizations (including Israeli ones) declaring it is guilty of apartheid

• its blatant disregard of countless UN resolutions spanning decades and breaches of international law.

• its ongoing illegal military occupation of the West Bank and settlement building

• the ICJ advisory opinion on the illegality of its separation wall.

It has not faced sanctions, it has been allowed to acquire nuclear weapons, it benefits from massive military and financial assistance from the US and other nations.

Other countries such as Iraq got invaded and had the shit bombed out of them for doing far far less than Israel has done over the years.

Forgive me a question.
Both Jews and Palestinians originated from this small area (correct ?) That suggests to me that they have a common ancestor (?) They also have similar cultural traditions, again, to me, suggesting common roots. If my above assumptions are true (happy to be corrected if wrong). When/how did the spilt happen? Do DNA records show common ancestry?

Wow. Holocaust Memorial Day and Jews are being openly told they should have moved to America instead of Israel aka Zion. You know, of 'Zionism' fame. What a surprise.

I refer you to my first paragraph.
Having read (god help me) too many of these threads and followed the links down various rabbit holes, my stance hasn't changed.

@quantumbutterfly do the 2 million in Gaza equate it with freedom from persecution? Including a million under 18. And 50% unemployed.

MooseBreath, the original Palestinian population, Muslims, Jews etc should have remained in historic Palestine and migrants from other parts of the world set up a state in America, which by 1947 was already a country made up of migrants and no longer a country run by indigenous people.
However that didn’t happen and we are now left with the awful reality of current ‘Zionism’ with the only peaceful solution which is two states thrown out.

I think Israel is scrutinised more than any other country and is a cause celebre when so many other terrible regimes are excused and ignored.
Do their opponents just have very good pr and louder voices?

So many atrocities perpetuated on them, various hijackers have singled them out for death, in Munich their Olympians were slaughtered, a few months ago they were subject to unimaginable horror which was celebrated openly in many western countries. Just a few examples where being Israeli or Jewish is a death sentence.

I cannot answer the op with a yes or no, you are equating Zionism with extremism but many Jewish people equate it with safety from persecution.

@headstone A great idea in principle, but both North and South America were already inhabited by indigenous populations. So you'd be turfing them out by putting Israel there, which is the exact same problem. There are also no ties to that land for Jewish people, most of whose families originate in the Middle East. Only 30% of Israeli Jewish people are of Ashkenazi descent; the majority are Mizrahi. There were already Jewish people living in what is now called Israel before 1948. All of the origins of Judaism and holy sites are in Israel, then Canaan.

@HardcoreLadyType "always was, always will be" ring a bell?

OP your summary of history is breathtaking in its ignorance. I have lived in Palestine and many of my family still live there. I find it sickening that you can describe ethnic cleansing, which objectively DID occur at the nakba, in 1967, and again today, as "returning a stolen car." Your lack of humanity is staggering.

I suppose in order to align yourself in sympathy with a genocidal state it is necessary to stay blind from the reality of the horrors inflicted by Israel from the day of its creation until today.

Many countries commit atrocities. I am Australian. There is a history of atrocities perpetrated against the Indigenous Australians, and more recently, also against people attempting to claim asylum in Australia.

But there is no call for Australia not to exist.

Holding Israel (a Jewish nation) to a different standard to other nations is, by definition, antisemitic.

Absolutely love how some non-Jews on here turn up like clockwork to every one of these threads to tell everyone, including actual Jews, what (they think) is and isn't anti-Zionism and antisemitism. It would be funny if it wasn't causing so much harm.

Being against carpet bombing hospitals is now anti semetic

Jewish people originate from all over the world. Why do you want them to all live in one place?

This is simply not true. Yes, many Israelis are the descendants of European Jews (ask yourself why). But MORE Israelis are the descendants of Middle Eastern Jews.

It's one thing to disagree with the premise of the OP (although personally I think it is very difficult to argue that anti-Zionism is not antisemitic without distorting or wilfully misunderstanding the definition of Zionism). However, it's quite another to post misinformation and lies to back up your argument.

It's fine to hate the actions of the Israeli government. I do too, although I imagine I view things in a less black-and-white way than some of its critics on MN. But if you start arguing that Israel has no right to exist - which is the very definition of ant-Zionism -then I'm afraid you are an antisemite.

I am a Muslim, who is hundred percent against what the IDF is still doing now. I believe they needed to respond to Hamas, but this constant killing and displacement of innocent Palestinians is unforgivable.

But this comment But it's true what they say, one day the oppressed becomes the oppressor. And in this case it's worse than what the nazis did because there is no army to fight back is also unacceptable in my eyes. We must never ever minimise what happened in the holocaust to minorities and millions of Jewish people. It was horrific and should never be used in an argument like this. The Nazis’ actions were truly some of the worst humankind has ever done. It makes me sick to see people using the actions of Nazis as an argument against Israel or Jewish people today.