Can you be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic?

@Yazzi But there is a huge difference between arguing or protesting against a country’s policies and government (which isn’t anti Zionist if it’s Israel you’re talking about) and saying that country shouldn’t exist at all (which obviously is anti Zionist). There’s a hell of a lot of Israel’s policies that I’m deeply against.

No one across the world is saying Russia or Australia shouldn’t exist. That wouldn’t be seen as legitimate. Yet it’s seen as legitimate by some to call for the destruction of Israel.

@TheLonelyStarbucksLovers can you really be that naive?

It's because none of those countries exist because of the explicit, brutal ongoing oppression of an existing and long standing population which they seek to replace.

The closest of those states you named to the above description is Australia, and Australia is hugely racist and oppressive to Indigenous people and Indigenous people lead the fight to some kind of justice- eg through treaty, land rights etc.

Russia is also a deeply repressive state. Their invasion of Ukraine is opposed by basically everyone. Many people believe that Russia as a state should not be led as it is, and I am pretty sure everyone would agree that all minority groups in land ruled by Russia should have equal rights as everyone else. The same as we are arguing with Israel.

Why do people oppose Zionism? Because in Palestine it always has and always will mean oppression.

I cannot tell you how surreal it is to argue about whether it's anti Semitic to be opposed to Israel one day after a friends aunt and her children were gunned down by a drone with a gun in a refugee camp in Gaza, while trying to get food.

Can you be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic?

For those people who say you can I’ve got a few simple questions for you. What’s the word for someone who’s against the existence of the country of Kosovo? Or Australia? Or Russia?

Yep - we don’t have words for these for the very simple reason people do not feel the need to argue against their very existence.

And I’ve picked those countries for a reason. Kosovo is a relatively newly established country. Russia is widely agreed to be an aggressive warmongerer. And Australia is a country borne of colonialism. People have used some or all of these points to argue against Israel’s existence.

Yet no one seriously thinks Russia, or Australia, simply shouldn’t exist. Yes, people disagree with these countries governments, policies etc, but it would seem bizarre to argue that Russia or Australia shouldn’t exist.

Israel seems to be the only country where there’s a word in common usage which has the definition of wanting the destruction of the country. Why is that?

I posted earlier wondering if the Jews and Palestinians are related due to coming from the same area, sharing similar traditions and even, I think, looking alike. Seems they are related.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Palestinians#:~:text=Some%20claim%20Jewish%20or%20Samaritan,and%20Arab%2Dspeaking%20Levantine%20groups.

No because being anti a jew state is being anti Jewish people. Why is OK to be anti zionist but not being anti Britain, anti France anti Spain etc?

Jewish people deserve a country to feel safe with no fear of being prosecuted as it happenedin the past in Russia, Germany ..

@1dayatatime I think your vision sounds beautiful and would be the ultimate hope of most Palestinians (and I hope Israelis) but it feels like a fantasy at this stage. That's why for Palestinians it feels like a disingenuous argument as commonly made; like-

"I want a two state solution- a solution that the Israeli government who has been voted into for the past 30 years has made impossible, after an Israeli assassinated the politician who almost brought it to fruition. So it cannot, will not, and has not happened. Without this solution, I'll implicitly agree with status quo rather than Palestinian receiving equal rights. And if Palestinians argue for the only solution that seems like it could physically give them right- a distant chance but more realistic than two states- and non-Palestinians support this- I'll call them anti-Semitic."

@Yazzi

I actually really respect your honesty in clearly stating your position :

"As for me, I am very comfortable saying that yes, the modern state of Israel should not exist in a form where Palestinians are treated as worse than second class citizens.

Too many people share the same opinion as you but don't have the honesty to stand up and clearly state it.

That said I have a different opinion to yourself believing that the only way to reach a long term solution is to give ordinary Gazans hope and an alternative to Hamas by creating a peaceful, politically stable and economically successful West Bank including the halting of and subsequent removal of settlements.

But I think the only way to properly debate this issue and hopefully reach a solution is by being honest and clear in our views, which you have done.

@1dayatatime do you believe in the modern state of Israel MORE than you believe in equal rights and self determination for Palestinians? All of Israeli "history" and facts on the ground shows there can only be one of these things.

That is what you believe, isn't it. So say it plainly. I challenge you to sit with the actual consequences of your beliefs.

As for me, I am very comfortable saying that yes, the modern state of Israel should not exist in a form where Palestinians are treated as worse than second class citizens. Where my own family members have been extrajudicially killed by Israel, or sit in "administrative detention" now for over a decade with no charges ever being laid (because there are no charges). It's depraved.

I understand that Zionists cannot have capacity to care for Palestinians or have compassion in any real way, because that would need then contending with their existential beliefs. But at least face what YOU are saying- you care more about Israel existing than Palestinians being treated as equal humans, and if you could only choose one, you would choose Israel..

@TrigTannet saying "there's no doubt that's what they would do" is enormously racist. What you think only white Western people can live with other groups "peacefully" (though other groups would laugh hollowly at that)?

And it's hoped for by people who actually understand the reality on the ground far better than you do, with your shameful "stolen car" metaphor.

In reality Israel had transferred hundreds of thousands of people into west bank settlements all throughout the west bank. Those people will never leave and Israel will never have the capacity to force them. That's the reality.

So the option is either apartheid forever, or a single state.

I challenge anyone who think it isn't apartheid to go visit or live in Palestine (after the horrific war); to experience two parallel roads- one paved, street lit, filled with amenities, and one a dirt track. The first for Israelis and the second for Palestinians.

Absolutely

@Humdingerydoo That is exactly my stance.

It is because of what @TrigTannet has said that I do not think a 1-state solution would work.

In an ideal world, yes, both Israelis and Palestinians would live under one nation from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. They would both democratically elect a unified leader and would live peacefully. I don't think this is realistic.

Israel and Palestine have such different cultures, histories, and religious beliefs. I believe that both are made up of (mostly) good people, but even good people have differences and one elected leader would not suit both parties because of the huge difference in values. Israelis and Palestinians both deserve that representation as well as preserving and celebrating their unique cultures and histories.

Jewish people want and deserve a Jewish state, which is and should remain Israel (Israelis of other religions and cultures are also rightfully accepted). Palestinian people want and deserve a home free of oppression and occupation, which should remain Palestine. Both leaders need to be removed and a two-state solution should be made based on the proposed 1948 borders.

I'm glad we can agree that any deaths are one death too many. I don't think anyone here thinks Palestinian deaths are the solution - that's a horrible thing to imply. A truly awful thought.

The topic at hand is if anti-zionism is always antisemitic, and I guess my point is that you can care about Palestinians and want peace and a two state solution, and want the illegal settlers out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem and still be a Zionist. Being an anti-zionist would mean you want Israel to not exist anymore. That, to me, means you are antisemitic as you don't believe in Jews having the right for self-determination. (To be clear, I don't mean you. I don't know your opinion on Zionism).

Personally, I am a Zionist in that I want (/see the need) for a Jewish state of Israel. I don't agree with illegal settlers and despise Netanyahu and his even more right-wing friends. I'm still a Zionist though. I can, and do, criticise Israel's politics without wanting the destruction of the country. That's not antisemitic. A lot of people are saying they're anti-zionist though, not that they're opposed to Netanyahu. That's a completely different thing.

Humdingerydoo: I oppose ALL civilian deaths on both sides. I am for nobody else but the common man- from Israel to Gaza to the world beyond. I hate what is happening. I hate what happened on October the 7th. I don’t think 25,000 (and counting) Palestinian civilian deaths is the solution. My people’s death was once ‘the solution’

My paternal side died in the Nazi death camps, so please… don’t even start painting me as a sympathiser of butchery on ANY side.
If there’s a child dying, that’s our child dying. Simple as that. Poke holes in my heart’s approach, but I stand by my hope for humankind.

You can be against the actions of the Israeli government and the IDF, you can oppose the horrifying bombing of Gaza, you can want the oppression of the Palestinians to stop and an end to illegal settlements in the WB. I am all of these things. You can also be all of these things without appropriating and redefining a specific word with a specific meaning and purpose for a specific minority and using it to formalise and legitimise a movement against that minority and the one country in the world that represents and harbours them.

ETA missing word.

@Echobelly

"Offering the Palestinian people an escape from poverty enforced on them by Israel would be the best way to defeat Hamas in my opinion, give them a place and a future."

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I see it as a carrot and stick solution. Absolutely it is essential that ordinary Palestinians are given an alternative of stability and prosperity to destruction and chaos. The best way of achieving this is through an economically successful and politically stable West Bank. Which would include the halting (and in the longer term removal) of West Bank Settlement.

At the same Hamas needs to be removed from power as they openly state their desire to eliminate the State of Israel. This can be achieved by:

1. Force by Israel
2. Voluntarily by Hamas deciding to step down and leave.
3. overthrow by ordinary Gazans

By as you say peace cannot be achieved by bombing and without a prosperous and peaceful alternative all Israel will achieve in Gaza is Hamas 2.0.

@Yazzi

"Separately, I think what most Palestinians realistically want and most allies want, is a one state solution- equal rights for everyone between the Jordan river and the sea".

++++

So in short the elimination of the current State of Israel then?

But Gaza treatment is like what happened in Germany certainly the beginnings of it. It is not antisemitic to call it out and say it's like what happened to Jews. It's just not. It's anti terror on other human beings by one set of human beings.

For the 3rd time it's absolutely not comparable so again, and I hate this expression, educate yourself about 1930s Germany and the Holocaust.

You shut down criticism. By saying antisemitic.

You're doing it again. I haven't seen one person shut you down this way. I do however think you are showing a great deal of ignorance and prejudice. Don't engage with me again @Flyhigher

I personally want everyone in the region to be able to share in the great stuff Israel has to offer. Offering the Palestinian people an escape from poverty enforced on them by Israel would be the best way to defeat Hamas in my opinion, give them a place and a future.

Obviously, it's not that easy and it feels impossible now because Israel has created a new generation of angry and traumatised people which makes it easier for Hamas or their successors up find people to carry out appalling acts like October 7th. You cannot bomb your way to peace.

@Echobelly I think you said it really well.

Separately, I think what most Palestinians realistically want and most allies want, is a one state solution- equal rights for everyone between the Jordan river and the sea. When people say they are anti-zionist, they are saying ALL people in Israel and Palestine should be treated equally, rather than the Jewish state existing at the expense of Palestine and Palestinians.

If you think arguing for equal rights for all people is anti-Semitic, then I don't know what to tell you.

I'd never heard of Sudeten Germans before, so thank you for that. Very interesting. I'm more aware of Jews from Arab countries as I'm one myself. 900 000 displaced Jews and no right to return (at least in the case of Iraq).

@Fussandmisery I can honestly say that I have not seen people defending the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, nor have I seen anyone on here say that Israel should have Gaza. I have distanced myself from the Conflict in the Middle East board though (I usually post under another name on that specific board), as the amount of hatred and antisemitism was really starting to make me feel anxious for my own safety in the UK. So it is possible that those things have been said, I just haven't seen it, certainly not on this thread.

Likewise, I have seen plenty of posts suggesting that Israel shouldn't exist, including on this thread (see: posts about moving the Jewish state to America 😳). It seems Palestinians are more valued than indigenous population of America by some.

Oh, I see. You've missed the point of the post. The OP is asking if anti-zionism is always antisemitic. There was no mention of being opposed to Israeli politics, it was about if you can wish for there not to be a Jewish state without being antisemitic. I hope that clears it up for you!