Can you be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic?

Oh yeah it was about the hostages. The IDF shot dead three of the hostages who were waving a white flag, they shot and killed people waving a white flag, not to mention the fact that they were Israeli. It’s just unbelievable.

israel has planted bags of food, and then when desperate Palestinians go to get it, they shoot them. Desperate starving innocent people trying to get food.

on the whole shooting people who are holding white flags, the IDF have killed so many people with white flags, going for food, trying to escape, go south like they were told.

theyre forcing people south, into supposedly safe areas, and then they flatten buildings and tents and hospitals and schools. How is this vaguely acceptable to anyone. Let alone people that have family that have experienced a genocide themselves. By this I don’t mean the average Israeli, I mean the government.

also while I’m mentioning hostages. Israel have consistently captured Palestinians, for either no crime or very minor things. Then held them for years without trial or even sometimes a charge. They beat them brutally, starve them, torture them. Often children. This should not be acceptable in this day and age. This treatment should not be acceptable for actual criminals, let alone children, or other people with no charge, no trial.

the IDF have shot dead multiple disabled people for, well, no reason, or minor things. What is acceptable about that.

why is Israel allowed to act like this with no consequence.

Just to answer the main question of the thread. Are there not rather a lot of Orthodox Jews that believe there shouldn’t be a homeland or go to it until the messiah comes to earth. And in their view that hasn’t happened yet. So theoretically no Israel should exist currently. Maybe my understanding is wrong, I have not looked into this specific view but I have read it multiple times.

and on your whole you would rather have Palestinians be forcibly removed from their own land to facilitate a Jewish state, or it be an apartheid state. Rather than have Palestinians be safe on their own land. Hamas and the Israeli government are the main issues. The Israeli government is committing a genocide and also trying to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian land. Have you not heard of all the plans the Israeli government has for Gaza, luxury apartments, hotels, beach resorts. And that’s not even mentioning the oil fields off the coast. This has always been the main goal, not destroying Hamas, to eliminate Palestinians. The West Bank has no Hamas but have you seen what they’re doing there. If the goal was to destroy Hamas they wouldn’t be attacking the West Bank. There was something else I wanted to write but it’s late and I’ve forgotten.

I'm sure you're aware that the iOf have been taking hostages for countless years? Taken away and not seen or heard from again. Some are eventually returned after being regularly beaten, starved etc. Men and women. Children have also been taken.

As for what you have stated about people supporting the date in October, looking at it properly, I think mostly anyone who has had countless family members murdered, imprisoned on false/nonexistent charges, beaten, tortured, the list goes on would not be very sympathetic to something happening to their oppressor.

Particularly when it has been going on for the number of years which it has been. It didn't all suddenly begin in October. Or that year.

I am well aware of what the court stated as I made sure to watch the live stream of it.

It is genocide.

You are well aware of the manner in which you spoke especially considering your other posts here. Israel needs to stop occupying and to stop their deliberate dehumanising actual human beings. Their propaganda machine installs that from childhood and it is extremely disturbing.

It is not their land to be on. There would be uproar if anyone on here dared to suggest that Israelis should be moved elsewhere so I would suggest thinking before saying the same about people who are being murdered simply for being Palestinian.

You really think a large proportion of Jewish people want to dismantle the Jewish state?

Lots of perfectly normal Jewish people are anti zionist without being antisemitic. It’s not just an extremist minority though that’s the example that was shared earlier on this thread.
In real life, many of the more liberal / left leaning Jewish people I know are somewhat to strongly anti zionist.

@TrigTannet

On what grounds do you build your faith in the Palestinians deciding to go against all of their history and culture and deciding not to murder the Jews as soon as they have the opportunity.

On the grounds that my family aren't murderers. On the grounds that relatives and thousands of Palestinians work in Israel every single day without murdering 🙄 Israelis.

Your hysterical delusions support a genocide happening, right now.

Plenty of peoples were and are moved around the world against their will (plenty in Europe and also the Jews of Arab nations who have already been discussed here) so I don’t think it would uniquely traumatising for the Palestinians to move to Jordan or Egypt or any other country.

This is ethnic cleansing. You are openly supporting ethnic cleansing. Yet you think you have the moral high ground. I would reflect on the things your support of Israel have you arguing for, if I were you. Personally I am thankful that my beliefs never have me arguing in support of genocide, and explicitly for ethnic cleansing.

@ZiriForGood thanks for your kindly phrased request. I am really sorry but given the above I can't come back to this thread it's too weird watching my Palestinian children play as people argue that people like them should should be made refugees for Israel to exist. Generally I resonate with the writing of Mustafa Barghouti- here's a short article but he's written books too: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/15/nakba-democratic-society-palestinians-mustafa-barghouti

Why should Palestinian people have to move elsewhere, though?? It is their country. Plenty have said that they do not want to leave. Israel need to stop occupying and taking land. (Also stop their genocidal acts also, obviously.)

It has been very clear, even without the Israeli government discussing what their plans to do with Palestine are.

@Yazzi sorry if you explained it somewhere earlier in the thread, but what is the solution you see as more viable than two states?
It sounds like some kind of unification?

If you don't mind:
How different is the real life between average Israeli and West bank/Gazan Palestinian?
On a very rough scale, like Western/Eastern Germany or North/South Korea?

I am in central Europe, so my viewpoint is inevitably influenced a lot by Holocaust, Sudeten, issues with re-union of Germany, splitting of Czechoslovakia, or Balkan wars.
For my region, splitting countries worked better than keeping them together as multi ethnic states - and than we all met in the EU which overcomes the disadvantages of splitting and makes unresolved disputes irrelevant. However, there is little chance to have some local union of Egypt+Israel+Jordan+Lebanon, so our solution don't have to work for you.

(Of course it's not your duty to educate me, thought if you participate in this kind of discussions from time to time and maybe have some favourite links, it would be great).

@Parkingt111

Thanks that was an interesting link.

Whilst I am in doubt that the majority of Governments and people in the West (including myself) would support a two state solution that doesn't necessarily mean that ordinary Palestinians or Israelis would support a two state solution.

What's more the West trying to impose such a solution against both parties will is somewhat arrogant, patronising and highly unlikely to succeed.

Coming back to your point:

"The current status quo has caused nothing but grief and endless violence either, so it circles back to what happens next as surely this can't continue ".

I still think that the average person values stability, peace and economic prosperity over more emotion driven ideals such as sovereignty or democracy etc. Which brings me back to my view that ordinary Gazans need to see a better alternative and need to see hope. To do this the West Bank must be made to work as stable and prosperous and ordinary West Bank Palestinians need to get behind this as well and not simply go through life as victims.

Because if that fails then the only other solution is "last man standing".

Certainly don't want to add to any bad feelings anywhere.
I do want all parties to grow and be safe and happy. Sorry if I've upset anyone.
Everyone deserves a place they feel safe. Jews have suffered. Just am very sad at the moment for Gaza. This conflict has raged my whole life.
Really want it to end. Hope an amazing set of leaders arise on both sides and find a way forward.

And I suppose it also depends on what each survey was presenting as two states and proposed borders for people to vote on, but interesting insight nonetheless

But, I don't know how these views might change after the war

@1dayatatime you might find this interesting.
I don't know what methodology was used for the surveys and how representative it really is, but it seems that on both sides the majority currently might not want a two state solution.
The current status quo has caused nothing but grief and endless violence either, so it circles back to what happens next as surely this can't continue

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-what-is-a-two-state-solution-and-do-israelis-and-palestinians-want-one#:~:text=Those%20results%20found%20that%2035,repeated%20his%20desire%20for%20one.

@TheLonelyStarbucksLovers

"Anyone who knows anything about the region, from the centre-left to the crntre-right, acknowledges that a two-state solution is the only workable way forward. The question is how to get there."

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Well a good starting point would be both sides being prepared to accept a two state solution which is currently not the case.

And whilst the West may see a two state solution as the only workable way forward Hamas and the Israeli Government certainly do not, preferring the destruction of each other.

anti Zionist people (including me) are saying Israel should not exist IN ITS CURRENT FORM.

And its current form is a Jewish state. That has to be the unequivocal starting point of a state of Israel. Yes, it should show tolerance, be multicultural etc, but these can only come about when a predominantly Jewish state is allowed to exist peacefully.

And as for your comments on a one state solution. It’s a lovely dream - “let’s all live together and be friends”. The reality would be a genocidal bloodbath that would lead to women and children on both sides bearing the brunt of the conflict. Anyone who knows anything about the region, from the centre-left to the crntre-right, acknowledges that a two-state solution is the only workable way forward. The question is how to get there.

@Yazzi

"@1dayatatime I think your vision sounds beautiful and would be the ultimate hope of most Palestinians (and I hope Israelis) but it feels like a fantasy at this stage."

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Perhaps you are right that my vision is naive and fantasy. There is certainly no shortage of naivety from posters from all sides with little understanding of the history and depth of anger from both sides and who think that the whole issue could be resolved if maybe the Israelis and Palestinians could sit down over tea and cake, sang a few songs together and talked it through.

There is also of arrogance about wishing to impose western values of secularism and democracy upon other countries when maybe just maybe they have their own culture, history and traditions and don't want western values. I mean it didn't turn out too well for the ordinary citizens of Iraq or Libya.

Most citizens of most countries just want stability, peace and economic prosperity, so whilst Gadaffi or Saddam Hussein were thoroughly unpleasant characters. I believe ordinary Libyans or Iraqis would have preferred them to the civil war, death and destruction that followed.

Meanwhile the majority of citizens (and I stress majority) of say Saudi or China that have resisted western values of secularism, democracy and freedom of speech seem to be doing just fine.

@TheLonelyStarbucksLovers anti Zionist people (including me) are saying Israel should not exist IN ITS CURRENT FORM.

We are not saying Israelis should leave. Should not speak Hebrew. Should not have Jewish public holidays. Should not be called "Israeli" even (Bosnians for example do not generally call themselves Bosnian-Herzegovinian, despite that being their state).

We are saying the state that exists should encompass the rights and and dignity of all the people who live within it. We are not asking for "less", we are asking for "more".

You can say that's delusional if you like. You can say it could never work. We say- two states is more delusional. Two states has even less chance of working. It sounds nice, but where would the extra 700,000 thousand Israelis- 10% of the Israeli population- who live in West bank settlements go, exactly?

You can say Palestinians would brutalise Israelis. We would say it's racist to assume a people are barbaric by nature. We would say it's a bitterly ironic argument given the ACTUAL brutal oppression that Israelis enact on Palestinians.

You can say life will be harder and more dangerous for Israelis as a country transitions from one form to another. This is very likely- look at South Africa. But do you think Apartheid should have been maintained instead?

Even if you disagree with the above argument, that's your prerogative. But to call it anti Semitism is lazy and disingenuous.