Can you be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic?

Thanks, myself and others posted this earlier and were told it was “offensive at best”. See upthread.

So, for those who consider quoting the views of anti Zionist Holocaust survivors, objectionable, here is a link to the statement from Jewish Voice for peace. They are a Jewish leftist organization who advocate for Palestinian rights and also oppose Zionism.
^^
“Jewish Voice for Peace is guided by a vision of justice, equality and freedom for all people. We unequivocally oppose Zionism because it is counter to those ideals.”

https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/

@1dayatatime do you know many Palestinians from places in the West Bank or Gaza? The idea they go through life "as victims", where does it come from?

Despite living under constant threat of being detained and tortured (an enormous number of Palestinians have been), and living in a totally untenable economic world where the cost of living matches Israel but the wages are much lower, Palestinians in Palestine live beautiful lives full of family, joy, celebration of life's big moments, boredom, gossip and hard work. They live normal lives in incredibly trying circumstances.

Incidentally thousands upon thousands of Palestinians travelled to Israel every single day for work from both Gaza and the west bank because Israel likes to use Palestinians as cheap labour. Because secretly Israelis know, when it suits them, that every day Palestinians aren't trying to viciously murder them the second they can get close enough to try. They're just trying to get by.

Quote from the video / insta post

“I saw In Auschwitz that if a dominant group wants to dehumanise others, as the Nazis dehumanise me, the dominant group must first dehumanise themselves, the same holds nowadays for Israel.

I am appalled about how hateful, how dehumanised, that they do not see any human aspect in any Palestinian anymore.

The Zionists have no right whatsoever to use the Holocaust for any purpose, they have given up everything which has to do with humanity and with empathy”

Hajo Meyer

not read the full thread so apologies if this has already been posted but came across this clip earlier with an interview with Auschwitz survivor Hajo Meyer about Zionism, Judaism, dehumanisation and it speaks to the original post's question in a powerful way.

Powerful and worth a watch.

https://www.instagram.com/p/C2nrOgOIfqN/

As was my response.

@1dayatatime

I still think that the average person values stability, peace and economic prosperity over more emotion driven ideals such as sovereignty or democracy etc. Which brings me back to my view that ordinary Gazans need to see a better alternative and need to see hope. To do this the West Bank must be made to work as stable and prosperous and ordinary West Bank Palestinians need to get behind this as well and not simply go through life as victims.

Because if that fails then the only other solution is "last man standing".

I agree about the west bank, but it can't be ignored that alot of the issues in there are due to the occupation and they are victims of the occupation. They are too well aware that there lives matter less through everyday examples of oppression. It can only happen if there is a independant state for the Palestinians where they are not living as second class citizens.

In regards to the last man standing, despite my reservations and criticisms of other countries involved, I do think they would prevent it reaching such a stage (although I have my doubts to what extent)

I've seen it written on here that if you have 2 jews in a room you'll get 3 opinions, (you could say the same about mumsnetters), so it seems to me that an objective definition of zionism may not reach a consensus.

That said, I won't use the perceived ambiguity of the word as a weapon to hide antisemitism.

The post was entirely relevant to the OP's original post.

Absolutely yes. Judaism and it's more spiritual teachings have nothing to do with zionism.

I find your post very offensive on so many levels. It reeks of islamophobia, is historically inaccurate and frankly infers the Jewish people are superior to the Muslims people.
If I had the time, I would counter argue every point you made but I am off to work.

Can't find anything to disagree with here.

A horrifying proportion of Gazans supported Hamas’s terrorist attack on October 7th. I’ve seen data which suggests as high as 75%.

Link?

It’s not racist to say a 1 state solution would have dire consequences for Jews. There are a lot of Palestinians and they have more children more quickly, so the Jews would very soon become a minority. Jews have never lived safely as a minority with equal rights in a Muslim nation. There were some periods of relative stability in some countries at some points in history, but they were only achieved because the Jewish population submitted to being 2nd class citizens and the Muslim majority weren’t feeling murderous at the time. Religious leaders in Palestine worked with the Nazis to try to kill all of the Jews before the modern state of Israel was established. The current Palestinian leadership (and a horrifying proportion of the normal people) want to kill all of the Jews in the world. On what grounds do you build your faith in the Palestinians deciding to go against all of their history and culture and deciding not to murder the Jews as soon as they have the opportunity. They do a pretty good job of it now without and political or military power! I’m sure it’s uncomfortable to admit to yourself that you support (or come from - I’m not sure from your posts) a group hell bent on genocide, but quite simply it would be insanity to trust the Palestinians in a 1 state country.

So you’re not racist youI just think Palestinians breed like rabbits, make other ethnicity’s live like second class citizens (tho it’s fine when Israel does it 🤷‍♀️), are all would be murderers/nazi sympathisers, and want to kill all the Jews in the world. Well thanks for clearing that up.

The title of the thread is can you be anti Zionist without being anti semitic.

I am not “throwing” anything your way. You posted the opinion of someone within the Jewish community - who is referencing the Holocaust- and I therefore posted an opposing view from someone who survived the Holocaust, to demonstrate that there isn’t consensus within the Jewish community itself on the issue of Zionism.

The point was to contribute to the discussion on the question posed by the thread. It wasn’t about you. If you’re not prepared to have an open discussion on this issue where various points of view can be exchanged and discussed reasonably then perhaps don’t engage in the thread.

Just touching on the debate between @Yazzi and @TrigTannet, I think the idea of Palestinians being effectively evicted if a one-state solution happens in Israel's name, or the removal of Israelis if a one-state solution happens in Palestine's name is a big part of why I don't support a "unified" state. There would invariably be a large group of innocent people unable to stay in their homeland, amongst their people, and with equal rights. And I do truly believe that both groups deserve a safe state that celebrates their cultures, ways of life, and histories, and that neither should be forced to conform or leave.

I do think Israel should continue to exist, which I suppose makes me a Zionist. I don't believe that it needs to exist at the cost of Palestinians, nor do I believe the current Israeli government is remotely suitable for leadership. No Palestinians should be oppressed, starved, or murdered. I also believe that Palestine has a right to exist, but there is no word for that. I don't believe that the only way for Palestine to exist is by having Hamas as leaders who intend to rape, torture, and slaughter Israelis and Jewish people worldwide.

I do value the opinions of those who would support a one-state unified solution. I just don't think it's viable.

I've been on here long enough, as have you, for you to know that I'm Jewish so throwing videos of Holocaust survivors' views my way is offensive (at best).

And you honestly think I haven't heard of Hajo Meyer? I wonder if you're aware though that he's used at every opportunity by the far left as some kind of gotcha to support their own antisemitic views.

@Grandmasswag

To be fair I think it would fair to say that a high proportion of both Israelis and Palestinians see each other with the view that "‘they are all mad murderous psychos who want to kill us’ .

As I see it there are three options:

1. Establishment of a two state solution which although is popular with Western Governments is not supported by either ordinary Palestinians or Israelis.

2. getting rid of the State of Israel and replacing it with a Greater State of Palestine - existing Jewish population may or may not be expelled, killed or live in peace (no one can be sure about this).

3. getting rid of the Palestinian State and replacing it with a Greater State of Israel - existing Palestinian population may or may not be expelled, killed or live in peace (no one can be sure about this).

Clearly the average Palestinian would prefer Option 2 over Option 3 and vice versa for the average Israeli.

and minimises the intentional dehumanisation, planning and scale of evil it takes to reduce individuals to members of an group deserving of mass torture and killing.

I don’t have much respect for Riley. In fact she’s said some quite antisemitism things herself. That aside that piece is fine but I really take issue with the above. This is exactly what the Israeli government are doing to the Palestinian people. Dehumanising them. Collective punishment, mass tourture and killing. Members of the government have literally said as much. They are not even trying to hide it. The justification being they all support Hamas (seen it on this thread). When would they have been surveyed since the oct 7th attacks? Whilst they were being bombed to smithereens or running for their lives? Given that they are living under a violent regime and most of them are children I just don’t know how anyone can use ‘they are all mad murderous psychos who want to kill us’ as justification as that is the exact definition of reducing individuals to a group deserving of mass torture and killing. And we’ve heard it direct from the horses mouth.

Snap! Just posted this same interview :)
I’m sure people will be on here soon enough to try and discredit his views but the reality - as unpalatable as it may be to some on here - is that there are many Jewish people who are also anti Zionist. Their views and those of non Jewish anti Zionists, are just as legitimate and cannot be merely dismissed as “antisemitic”.

m.youtube.com/watch?si=HpK_tAw0Pb21pFhO&v=YVmCwhFk6Pc&feature=youtu.be

Here is holocaust survivor Hajo Meyer explaining why he is anti Zionist. I don't think you can call him antisemitic so I guess it is possible to be anti Zionist without being anti semitic.

i'll just say i'm anti israeli government....and all the other governments that have supported their mass expulsions and genocides

Yeah. I’d rather listen to the views of an actual Holocaust survivor. Here is Hajo Meyer (RIP). German physicist and Holocaust survivor talking about his experience and how Zionists have no right to use the Holocaust for any purpose because “they have given up everything which has to do with humanity and with empathy”.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2nrOgOIfqN/?igsh=MXQwdDMyZ3lwNmY4OQ==

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HajoMeyer

“I’m sure it’s uncomfortable to admit to yourself that you support (or come from - I’m not sure from your posts) a group hell bent on genocide, but quite simply it would be insanity to trust the Palestinians in a 1 state country.”

@TrigTannet your posts are not only condescending but deeply offensive.

Whatever you think of Rachel Riley (and frankly I don't care) these words are spot on.

https://twitter.com/RachelRileyRR/status/1751218232906616858

"Today is Holocaust Memorial Day, where we remember the 6 million Jewish men, women and children, the thousands of Roma and Sinti, black, gay, disabled and other groups, systematically murdered in the Holocaust, as well as in subsequent genocides in Rwanda, Bosnia, Cambodia and Darfur, where people were persecuted and killed in masses, with the purposeful intent of their total annihilation.

Currently in China, between 1-3 million Uyghur Muslims are in concentration camps, in the first genocide recognised by the British government while it is happening.

27th January is the date chosen to mark this, as the date of the liberation of Auschwitz, a death camp where Jews had to pay for their own travel in cattle trucks for days, from as far as Greece and Norway, to Poland to be killed. Approx 1.1m people were murdered there alone.

This morning, I’ve already seen Holocaust charities, messages from survivors, and mourners, trolled online in their pain and remembrance, with taunts of being ‘the new nazis’ and cries of ‘genocide’ in Gaza.

Let me be clear, the humanitarian disaster in Gaza is awful. The loss of innocent civilian life is devastating, and every decent person wants an end to the suffering of innocent people, whoever they are and wherever they come from, as soon as possible. But however much pain this situation is causing, it is not genocide, and it is not comparable to the Holocaust.

This is a new form of Holocaust denial, which distorts the nature of genocide, and minimises the intentional dehumanisation, planning and scale of evil it takes to reduce individuals to members of an group deserving of mass torture and killing.

War is horrific by nature, and the pain and suffering it causes I hope never to experience myself, or for my family, and I can’t claim to know how that feels. I empathise with all those suffering due to the accident of where they were born in the world, in the hands of violent and extremist regimes.

In other conflicts, just in and around that region, 377,000+ Yemenis, 236,000+ Afghans, 5,400,000+ Congolese, 500,000+ Sudanese, 500,000+ Syrians, 500,000+ Somalis, 300,000+ Iraqis, 50,000+ Libyans have been killed. None were labelled genocides, none were compared to the Holocaust, perpetrators weren’t called nazis. These victims are barely spoken of.

This call of genocide is saved for Jews, and for Israel alone, because of the pain this accusation specifically causes them. It has been shouted maliciously for decades, yet is particularly painful in the wake of the Oct 7th pogrom, with 136 hostages still captive, and nearly 1,300 brutally murdered in cruel and celebratory style, in the single biggest loss of Jewish life since the Holocaust.

Latest Hamas figures say around 24,000 have been killed in Gaza. Israel says 9,000 are combatants. Reducing this to a numbers game is uncomfortable when it comes to the suffering of real people, and I repeat, every innocent death - every innocent man, woman and child suffering is a tragedy. But ignoring or inverting the truth of the situation and its cause, does nothing to help those suffering now, and will only encourage other rogue groups around the world to do the same in the future, should it be globally sanctioned or ignored.

Hamas has designed and planned for this style of war, spending years and stealing literally billions of aid money to protect its terrorist organisation and weaponry by building tunnels up to twice the length of the London Underground system underneath hospitals, schools, mosques and civilian infrastructure with its specific aim of using human shields to protect itself after provoking its neighbours.

Genocidal antisemitism whether from the nazis or Hamas, brings only death and destruction to both Jews, and those under living under these regimes. For the sake of everyone wanting only to raise their families, have careers, build, move forward and live, this needs to be acknowledged and tackled by all of us."

@TrigTannet to be clear the court found that it is plausible that Israel is committing genocidal acts. This is the threshold question which allowed it to make orders at all. The court could not decide that Israel IS committing genocide- that's another process (for which this decision has opened the door). Instead the court could have decided it was not plausible that Israel had genocidal intent (as Israel strongly argued in their submissions) or is plausible. Despite Israel's arguments, which you have echoed here in "Hamas hides in civilians so it's fine to kill them as it's worth it as they're only Palestinians", the court found against them.

As for you saying I should provide "evidence" that Palestinians are not barbaric murderers en masse. What a racist and miserable position. If I said "Israelis would all murder Palestinians if they got the chance so Palestinians need to be kept safe from them", then I am certain you would call me anti-Semitic.

Your hysteria and distrust mean that beautiful wonderful and innocent people are dying right now in their tens of thousands. It's chilling to see you excuse it.