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Conflict in the Middle East

Can you be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic?

208 replies

TrigTannet · 26/01/2024 22:57

I’m inclined to think the answer is no, but I’ve seen a lot of people on here recently attempting to say that they’re not antisemitic, they’re just anti-Zionism. I would love to hear someone explain how they imagine that works.

As I understand it, Zionism is a political ideology which says that Jews should have self determination in their homeland. Many minority indigenous peoples want, and have, some level of self determination, from fully sovereign states to devolution or reserves with different laws. The world overwhelmingly supports that. What is the moral argument against self determination for Jews?

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Fussandmisery · 28/01/2024 16:22

Yes

Lol, okay then

revsersalenergy · 28/01/2024 15:10

Fussandmisery · 28/01/2024 15:01

Yes, not that it's relevant.
Not relevant? Seriously?

Edited

Yes.

Desertrose2023 · 28/01/2024 15:04

revsersalenergy · 28/01/2024 14:20

You're not antisemitic, you just think there shouldn't be a Jewish state. Uh huh.

I’ve given my explanation for my stance earlier in the thread if you’d bothered to read. I don’t have an issue with the idea that Jewish people have the right to self determination or their own homeland given the persecution they’ve suffered. What I strongly disagree with is how this political theory manifested in reality - ie the state of Israel which was founded following the forced displacement of Palestinians from their homeland to make way for this state - and where Jewish supremacy is now enshrined by law. In practice, Zionism has meant Palestinians are dispossessed of their land and homes and brutalized on a daily basis in the name of Jewish security. That is why I am an anti-Zionist. It is not because I have any hatred towards Jewish people as a religious or ethnic group (I don’t) or because I believe they don’t also deserve to live in peace.

Fussandmisery · 28/01/2024 15:01

Yes, not that it's relevant.
Not relevant? Seriously?

kistanbul · 28/01/2024 14:51

@revsersalenergy
Believing in the Jewish people’s right to self-determination is not incompatible with believing that the way Israel was established and/or has been maintained and expanded is antithetical to the rights of the Palestinian people. (Almost) Everyone agrees that both Israelis and Palestinians have rights. The disagreement is around what a just balance of those rights looks like.

I think you should look a little more closely at the politics of Australia, Canada and US indigenous people. People certainly do say that those states should never have been created and require immense reparations. You’ll find very few people on pro-Palestinian marches, who disagree. You’ll also find similar people standing up for the Rohingya people.
In fact every country where there is a clash of beliefs about the “correct” ethnic makeup of a country has these conflicts.
Israel is the only one I can think of with an active conflict where the UK government sells arms to and gives considerable active support to one side.

revsersalenergy · 28/01/2024 14:48

Fussandmisery · 28/01/2024 14:39

you just think there shouldn't be a Jewish state.
Do you think there should be a Palestinian state?

Yes, not that it's relevant.

Fussandmisery · 28/01/2024 14:39

you just think there shouldn't be a Jewish state.
Do you think there should be a Palestinian state?

revsersalenergy · 28/01/2024 14:20

Desertrose2023 · 28/01/2024 13:23

The premise of the thread was a question on if you can be anti Zionist and not anti semitic. As someone who is anti Zionist and not an antisemite (despite what some posters appear to think of me), I have contributed to the question and have cited the views of some within the Jewish community to demonstrate there isn’t consensus of this topic. It’s not about “good Jew” or “bad Jew” or weaponsing internal debate.

If only the views of the Jewish posters on this board matter, and only they are permitted to have a view on this topic, then can I suggest that this thread is removed from the CIME section, and moved to the Jewish Mumsnetters board.

You're not antisemitic, you just think there shouldn't be a Jewish state. Uh huh.

revsersalenergy · 28/01/2024 14:19

kistanbul · 28/01/2024 12:31

Of course Jewish people have the right to a state, but that right doesn’t trump the rights of others In the region.
Many forms of Zionism see the establishment of a majority Jewish state to the ancient borders of Israel as the primary goal. That is not possible without committing terrible crimes against the Palestinian people.

Of course Jewish people have the right to a state

You say that like it's a given. Like there aren't people on these boards who think otherwise. That Israel shouldn't have been created, that it should be moved to a different country, that it should be dismantled, that is should be absorbed into Palestine. Or in the case of at least one poster that it should be invaded by the UN, it's government violently overthrown and all elected officials replaced indefinitely with unelected foreign officials. People don't say any of that about other countries.

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 28/01/2024 14:15

The problem with Zionism is that it is, at heart, congenital nationalism birthed in a time and place (Europe!) that has historically birthed, housed, and perpetually driven nationalism in many forms; ideologies that have lingered long past the dead empires they were forged in as a reaction to the nationalist movements of the time threatening the very existence of Jews. Fighting fire with fire. “My ideology is bigger than your ideology!” I’m deliberately pointing to Europe (don’t get me started on Russia… it’ll be a long post and I won’t be as sure of my words, which, even now, are flawed).

Theodor Herzl, certainly Zionism’s most progressive and influential leader, came from a family whose Jewish roots were similar to those of my own European ancestors’. They were secular Jews. Assimilation, back then, was necessary. It came at a cost of one’s authentic identity. My family was German first, Jewish second. Much in the way that I am British first, American second, simply because I’ve lived here longer and have assimilated. I no longer feel at home in America… and yet, deep down, my authentic self is passionately American. This is a flawed comparison. I get it.
The difference is, being American in the UK brings me no intolerance and has never been a barricade to opportunities, safety, and well-being here in my adopted homeland. I have assimilated because of time and ease and raising a family in this culture that is now my own. I have not assimilated because I am trying to avoid persecution. Being Jewish in Europe, for centuries, came with a myriad of barriers, with laws imposed in order to secure those barriers. It’s true, some places were better than others, the Rhineland once being Europe’s Jewish heartland where the term Ashkenazi was derived.
Zionism was a nationalist ideology for Jews who felt, very rightfully, unsafe, rejected, devalued, and walking scapegoats in a society fuelled by a host of nationalist ideologies, many specifically established to assist in the destruction of European Jewish identity, livelihood, and safety in regions many Jews, like my own family, had lived in for hundreds of years. I am a first generation American. When I look at my family tree, I see hundreds of old branches from old trees, poisoned at their roots by systemic antisemitism, genocide, and perpetual war. I feel very alone in my history. My family tree is a sad one. But I am proud of it, nonetheless. I can’t help but think the Palestinian people feel the same.

I am not anti Zionist. I’m not pro Zionist. My father never attached himself to ANY ideology, so suffocated was he by (what felt to him like) Europe’s conveyor belt of ideologies. I follow his path. My choice.
My father’s family never wanted to go to Israel. They were strudel eating, mountain hiking Germans… and Jews. He grew up in the Carpathian Mountains. A Middle Eastern desert and Biblical ideology of a homeland made little sense to my family. I’m just telling you what Israel meant to my family. My dad wasn’t anti Zionist or antisemitic. He was fucking tired. Tired of running. Tired of looking like he was 50 at the age of 20. He used to laugh and say, “We were too tired to go and work on a kibbutz in the desert after everything.” Starvation gave my dad rickets and its telltale bow legs and early onset heart failure. He had yet to hold a girl’s hand. He was tired of trying to outrun an inherited, collective existential threat that had preceded him. He was tired of what he called The Malignancy of Man, “I’ve seen it. I’ve lived it,” he told me. So when I see the Palestinian people, their babies’ limbs being blown off before they take a final breath, and the Israeli hostages going down with this geopolitical nightmare of a fucking ship, and the innocent Israeli victims of October 7th enjoying one last dance underneath a cloudless blue sky, I see victims of the mankind’s malignancy. How to stop its spread when it froths from our own bilious mouths is another matter.

What I won’t see in my lifetime is a two state solution. It’s been 75 years. It hasn’t worked. Theodor Herzl’s infamous quote, “If you will it, it is no dream,” has become an existential nightmare for Israel and the entire region. An ideology, founded in late 19th century Europe as a reaction to the longstanding persecution of Jews across Europe, then transplanted to the Levant on the broken wings of Biblical ideology by mostly secular Jews who sought safety through a system that green lighted the usurping of security and homes of the region’s longstanding inhabitants, has not worked. It’s the world’s filthiest argument over real estate EVER. And we’re further away from a two state solution than ever before. This will get zapped. I know.

Fussandmisery · 28/01/2024 14:04

Those who want Israel’s borders to extend to the biblical territory of Israel need to address how it is possible to do so while maintaining the human rights of the Palestinian people
No they need to be told to stick to the 1948 borders.

Auvergne63 · 28/01/2024 13:31

Those who want Israel’s borders to extend to the biblical territory of Israel need to address how it is possible to do so while maintaining the human rights of the Palestinian people.
This is the biggest contradiction in terms I have even come across so far.

Desertrose2023 · 28/01/2024 13:23

kistanbul · 28/01/2024 13:13

My comment was about people citing theological arguments against the establishment of the modern state of Israel to claim that anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism. If you’re not Jewish, do not weaponise intra-Jewish debates.

Those who want Israel’s borders to extend to the biblical territory of Israel need to address how it is possible to do so while maintaining the human rights of the Palestinian people.

The premise of the thread was a question on if you can be anti Zionist and not anti semitic. As someone who is anti Zionist and not an antisemite (despite what some posters appear to think of me), I have contributed to the question and have cited the views of some within the Jewish community to demonstrate there isn’t consensus of this topic. It’s not about “good Jew” or “bad Jew” or weaponsing internal debate.

If only the views of the Jewish posters on this board matter, and only they are permitted to have a view on this topic, then can I suggest that this thread is removed from the CIME section, and moved to the Jewish Mumsnetters board.

kistanbul · 28/01/2024 13:13

My comment was about people citing theological arguments against the establishment of the modern state of Israel to claim that anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism. If you’re not Jewish, do not weaponise intra-Jewish debates.

Those who want Israel’s borders to extend to the biblical territory of Israel need to address how it is possible to do so while maintaining the human rights of the Palestinian people.

Whitefoxnight · 28/01/2024 13:11

I'm not sure how you can argue with a holocaust survivor

So how do you cope when you hear the views of holocaust survivors who support Israel? Do you just change your mind depending on which holocaust survivor happens to be speaking to you at the time? That must get very confusing for you if you hear a debate between holocaust survivors with different opinions. You must have to change your mind every couple of minutes.

Or did you mis-speak and mean to type, ' I am not sure how I can argue with a holocaust survivor who happens to have the same opinion as me.' ?

Whitefoxnight · 28/01/2024 13:06

The answer is No. You are right.

When people say you can what they mean are, ' there are nice Jews who have the same opinions as me, and bad ones who don't.'

Desertrose2023 · 28/01/2024 13:03

kistanbul · 28/01/2024 12:52

I’m uncomfortable with non-Jews using theological arguments about Zionism against Jews.

If that’s aimed at me, I haven’t used any theological arguments against Jews. I’ve noted that there is a form of religious Zionism that exists and that it calls for the expansion of Israel into territories it does not currently hold. this theological form of Zionism actually threatens the lives and rights of people currently in those territories (including friends and family of my own). We’ve seen it manifest through the activities of settlers in the West Bank who are killing and dispossessing Palestinians there. It is entirely within my own right to challenge it.

kistanbul · 28/01/2024 12:52

I’m uncomfortable with non-Jews using theological arguments about Zionism against Jews.

Desertrose2023 · 28/01/2024 12:37

An article by Naomi Klein that is also insightful
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/11/why-are-some-of-the-left-celebrating-the-killings-of-israeli-jews

@kistanbul indeed, there are a great many religious Zionists who see it as their godly responsibility and right to establish “Greater Israel”. This is a very scary ideology that must be challenged.

In Gaza and Israel, side with the child over the gun | Israel | The Guardian

Some continue to minimize massacres of Israeli civilians - this only fuels militant Zionism

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/11/why-are-some-of-the-left-celebrating-the-killings-of-israeli-jews

kistanbul · 28/01/2024 12:31

Of course Jewish people have the right to a state, but that right doesn’t trump the rights of others In the region.
Many forms of Zionism see the establishment of a majority Jewish state to the ancient borders of Israel as the primary goal. That is not possible without committing terrible crimes against the Palestinian people.

25milesfromhome · 28/01/2024 12:25

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Desertrose2023 · 28/01/2024 12:11

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25milesfromhome · 28/01/2024 11:53

Only a matter of time before the poster children for antisemitism cloaked as anti-Zionism were invoked. A virulently anti-Israel organisation that is actively harmful to Jews, does not represent the majority of Jews or Jewish values, regularly platforms antisemitic views and tropes and many members of which aren’t even Jewish Not a Jewish voice, not for peace.

Squarecrisp · 28/01/2024 11:41

Desertrose2023 · 28/01/2024 11:30

Thanks, myself and others posted this earlier and were told it was “offensive at best”. See upthread.

So, for those who consider quoting the views of anti Zionist Holocaust survivors, objectionable, here is a link to the statement from Jewish Voice for peace. They are a Jewish leftist organization who advocate for Palestinian rights and also oppose Zionism.
^^
“Jewish Voice for Peace is guided by a vision of justice, equality and freedom for all people. We unequivocally oppose Zionism because it is counter to those ideals.”

https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/

thanks @Desertrose2023 sorry to hear some people found it "offensive at best".

It seemed pretty spot on to me. I'm not sure how you can argue with a holocaust survivor.