Eliminate Hamas……At any the cost ?

I don’t think she meant it literally.

@Fussandmisery 🤔It is confusing, reading the thread back!
That was in reference to the deleted post who was saying that she could write a book titled "Palestinian non-violent resistance"...

I did not say that my feelings are more important then theirs at all. I said that I would not buy a book with that title for personal trauma reasons.
Well I don’t think there is a book with that title is there? <confused>

They do. Most Gazan Palestinians are refugees from what is now Israel. They do want to return to their homes in Israel, but Israel has refused them their UN right of return for decades.

You make a good point but I can't imagine they'd want to settle there if they had a choice.

It’s quite revealing that the Israeli ministers calling for “voluntary humanitarian migration of Palestinians from Gaza” are not saying they can come into Israel, return to their homes there or settle peacefully within Israel. Israel is 1) a wealthy nation right next door who caused the current humanitarian crisis and 2) the occupying nation, which is the one and only country currently legally responsible for the welfare of Palestinians.

If their objective were voluntary humanitarian migration, it would be mostly migration into Israel, not the load them in the backs of lorries or on boats and send them off to other countries.

@HeidiInTheBigCity I did not say that my feelings are more important then theirs at all. I said that I would not buy a book with that title for personal trauma reasons.
I do find the term Palestinian resistance triggering. I've had friends and family killed in "Palestinian resistance" so for me rioting Palestinians brings up a lot of fear.

And to argue with you again, if you enter a military zone throughout the world, it states very clearly that you are at risk of getting shot.

Yes, I get that you want them to please just "go, lie down and STFU or flee quietly"

This is the thing - Israel does expect the Palestinians to just pack their bags and quietly trot off to some other “Arab country” and leave then to all the land to which they feel entitled.

Pro Israelis will also happily tell you that they are aware that Israel's prime minister is not a good person and, of course, they don’t approve of settler violence but they scream blue murder if you suggest Israel’s actions might be part of the problem.

I think it’s less a demand for “total subjugation” and more following the ideas behind Krav Maga. This form of martial art is quite central in IDF thinking/training I think?

@HeidiInTheBigCity Source? These figures I got from Britannica. (Honestly, I don't know how reliable that is.)

You made a point about the March of no return. I'm currently trying to research it. My understanding is that after Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 there was 100m enforced buffer "no-go-zone" along the border. These riots at the border encroached on this military zone. Its reasonable to say that regardless whether these marches were peaceful or not there are consequences to entering a military zone.

Lastly, frankly I find the term "Palestinian non-violent resistance" very triggering. Every suicide bomber and terror attack In Israel that I've heard about over the years have all been carried out in the name of Palestinian resistance, including the latest one on 7/10, so you'd be hard up selling a book with that title to me.

Israel does demand for a "total subjugation" of terrorists because that is what all civilised countries do. All Israel would like is a country that is safe for its citizens without the threat of rockets, stabbings, suicide bombings and festival massacres.

I think that will be difficult to achieve now. Years of land grabs, violent settlers (in the West Bank) and general mistreatment (I’m thinking of stuff like administrative detention here) plus a right wing government in Israel that condones such behaviour, have created a great deal of instability and resentment. The perfect breeding ground for radicalisation.

Also bear in mind Hamas do not exist is isolation and their leaders are not even in Gaza. I’m sorry but I don’t see what bombing the hell out of Gaza will achieve. Sure it may destroy infrastructure and make Gaza unusable as a base but Hamas will probably continue in one form or another.

Where on earth are you taking that figure of 1.4k dead Israelis from, pray do tell? EDIT: specifically "civilians" ... I was referring to "total numbers".

Sources please!

No, "I'm just making shit up at this point" does not count!

Even the most generous estimates are below 400 - and, again, I was specifically referring to the first few months!

Not even official Israel claims that - and it's not as though lying at any given opportunity were not sort of "basically official policy" ...

The 1st intafada began when an Israeli man was stabbed to death in Gaza... Then an accidental car accident was falsely rumoured to be deliberate causing riots and violence by the Palestinians.
In total 1.4k Israeli civilians were killed. So peaceful intifadas is delusional.

Israel does demand for a "total subjugation" of terrorists because that is what all civilised countries do. All Israel would like is a country that is safe for its citizens without the threat of rockets, stabbings, suicide bombings and festival massacres.

... all of which would be a lot more credible if it were not for the fact that Israel also kills Palestinians for any non-violent form of resistance!

Points in case:

• The 1st Intifada: for the initial 18 months or so, not a single Israeli was killed. But ~200 Palestinians were (and: many thousands more injured! A personal friend of mine still has the scar from being shot throgh the shoulder)!
• The Great March of Return - again, not a single Israeli was even killed (a total of five were injured; some from friendly fire/shrapnel). Some ~200 Palestinians were, though, and thousands more were injured!
• ... and more ... I am not about to type out an "anthology of Palestinian non-violent resistance" here. If I do write that, you please pay for the book!

Israel demands "total subjugation", nothing less!

Israel demands the right to kill and maim Palestinians for rising up against their oppression even when they are not even killing Israelis.

And "total subjugation" they will never get! Not from Palestinians, not from anywhere else!

This is true.
And Israel are also aiming to demilitarise Hamas practically by ensuring that they don't have the power to cause carnage again. So they're ruining their tunnels, rocket launchers, terror infrastructure etc.

I think the Israeli strategy is not so much to "eliminate Hamas" because I'm sure they know that's impossible. They will ensure that the Palestinians never dare to rise up again by sheer terror and unhinged violence, like they did in Lebanon in 2006. They want to teach the Palestinians a lesson they'll never forget.

Classical abuser "woe me, look at what you made me do!" behaviour!
Exactly!!

While I cannot quite put my finger on exactly why quite yet, I find that there is something particularly galling about this "it is tragic" line by Israel and its supporters.

Possibly it is the combination of a) acknowledging the insane level of carnage, b) rejecting any and all responsibility for it, and c) in at least some cases, either openly so or implied, some sort of a demand to be viewed as a victim not despite but because of Israeli violence. Classical abuser "woe me, look at what you made me do!" behaviour!

And, yes! I, for one, am more than happy to call it "slaughter". Or worse!

I think you’ll find many are quite happy to call it a slaughter, ie indiscriminate killing of unarmed civilians
Because
That’s what it is

That's terrifying

@TomeTome there's a real risk it won't be
Flooding Hamas tunnels with seawater risks ‘ruining basic life in Gaza’, says expert | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian

If the surface is bombed and the tunnels flooded with salt water, how is it ever going to be habitable?

The IDF have been flooding the tunnels under Gaza with seawater for about 3 weeks now.
Then pray that the hostages are not kept there. But, then again, the Israeli government appear hell bent on killing as many as possible. They don't appear too bothered who they kill.

As I see it, the only time that Hamas want to 'come to the table' is when they are losing.

The IDF have been flooding the tunnels under Gaza with seawater for about 3 weeks now.

Maybe Hamas is having problems with their terrorist activities now they are paddling around in a few inches of water in the dark ?