Brave Israeli

Whoah, hang on…

Do you think Hamas acts and thinks like one joined up organisation..?

Is that what you think happened on 7th October..? A unilateral decision taken by Hamas leadership to carry out the attacks..?

Because if you do, you are showing the absolute lack of understanding/research/comprehension that you’ve been so quick to accuse others of on all your threads

It has been clear from very soon after the attacks that this was not an attack planned, sanctioned or known about by large sections of Hamas and its leaders, and the attack caused an internal conflict

Kind of embarrassing for you of all posters to be totally ignorant of this, no?

@DownNative

There have never been 2 identical conflicts in the history of mankind. It’s very bizarre that you are trying to have some gotcha moment pointing out that there are differences between conflicts that happened several decades apart on different continents over different matters.

But there are similarities and common threads running between many of them.

And in situations where colonialism and imperialism are a factor, there are obviously similarities

It’s been a sadly common thing I’ve noticed in pretty much all of the threads on here to patronise anyone who doesn’t agree with the Israeli position as not understanding history/geopolitics but I must say, I do love you taking it to the next level with your accusation that I don’t understand terrorism!

The usual next step here is a childish insult about comprehension skills so I’ll wait for that with bated breath.

But for those in the real world, we don’t need to labour over exact parallels between this and previous conflicts.

It is enough to remember that Hamas is not the first terrorist organisation to try and mobilise popular support by promising a deeply oppressed group an end to their oppression by removing the oppressors.
And it is enough to remember that not all those groups accused of oppression felt the need to quell the perceived threat to them by committing genocide against the oppressed group even when they elected a group with close ties to proscribed terrorist organisations to elect them.

The bigger picture here is that is Israel is fast putting itself on the wrong side of history with its behaviour in this conflict.
The tide of popular support in the US and Europe has turned and the full support of those countries leaderships has evaporated

The next step from here is that Hamas will gain support from wider diaspora who start to view them as freedom fighters rather than terrorists, and while absolutely no one will want that to happen, Israel will only have themselves to blame

but I’m sure you will come at us with another argument about false equivalence rather than anything constructive about how to stop this horrendous situation escalating or prolonging

In the words of much smarter people than me - either both sides win, or everyone loses.
But Israel is too stubborn, bitter and belligerent to entertain that, so now we all lose

Like Clinton said to Arafat years ago, it is Hamas who have led the Palestinian people and the region to catastrophe.

There was no need for Hamas to invade and murder Israelis on 7th October 2023 which broke the ceasefire that had held since May that year.

In what world can a group like Hamas advance or help the cause of the Palestinian people overall?!

Palestinians have been failed by all their leaders since 1948 who are too interested in their own benefit and in using the experiences of Palestinians to keep themselves in a place of power which keeps Palestinians stuck into a Gordian Knot. 🤔

I was reading about this man OP and came across an article that was talking about other 'refuseniks'. I thought this was interesting:

In 2003, a group of Israeli Air Force pilots provoked national fury when they refused to take part in operations in the West Bank and Gaza. Submitting a letter to the media, they branded attacks on the territories as “illegal and immoral”.

The case was noteworthy, involving elite army members like Brigadier General Yiftah Spector, considered a legend in the forces for his attack on Iraq’s nuclear reactor in 1982. The government accused the pilots of “pretentious snivelling”.

That same year, the country’s elite commandoes also defied orders to carry out attacks on the occupied territories. Setting out their position in a letter, 15 reservists from the Sayeret Matkal unit, often compared with the British army’s SAS, said: “We will no longer corrupt the stamp of humanity in us through carrying out the missions of an occupation army.

“In the past, we fought for a justified cause (but today), we have reached the boundary of oppressing another people.”

No problem - the hysterical false equivalence to PIRA wore thin a long time ago! 🙈

You're correct that Hamas' watered down rhetoric from 2017 onwards doesn't match their actions. Their real position is still their pre-2017 rhetoric and not their false act of moderation since.

Their words since 7th October 2023 is highly revealing in this regard. In short, the public face of moderation was merely a ruse by which Hamas could conceal their true planning.

When it comes to terrorist groups, people must go beyond their public rhetoric to look at their actions. Unless an individual supports that group or is what's known as a sneaking regarder....🤷‍♂️

Your post just shows you know very little about terrorist ideologies and even less about PIRA! 🤦‍♂️

PIRA didn't advocate for the eradication of the British State, for starters. They absolutely did not have that kind of capability in terms of weaponry. Hamas makes PIRA look like kindergarten terrorists, for crying out loud!

There is no real comparison between Northern Ireland and Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Most obvious is the fact Hamas controls Gaza whereas PIRA never had control of Northern Ireland or the Irish Republic whose government they also considered to be an enemy.

The only real point of comparison is the historical reality that Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA viewed themselves engaged in the same so-called "struggle" as PLO/Hamas. And that is just a laughable view the Provos had! 🤣

PIRA was clearly NOT the kind of threat to the British State that Hamas clearly is to the Israeli State.

Ridiculous to see anyone still trying hard to make them equivalent in any way. Christ.

@Finallyloggedin You accuse Israelis using the emotive word "murder" in the context of a war HAMAS started, simultaneously failing to name perhaps the single most outrageous example of wanton barbarism as the incident it was. And it was not an isolated incident, either.

And yes, Israel is justified in doing whatever it takes to prevent "this" from happening again.

@PiersPlowman11 can you link to the news report please?

Also are you really trying to use this - horrific as it sounds if it is true - to justify the murder of over 25,000 people?

I saw some really well thought out posts on this thread this morning. Such a shame so many are being deleted. Surely it’s not right to silence all opposition.

I wasn't referring to their constitution I was referring to their statements about Otober 7th which are clear and unequivocal. As are Iran's pronouncements on Israel AND JEWS.

Do you enjoy putting words in people's mouth?

What are you talking about? I reported one post earlier because it was offensive. Presumably MN agreed with me. I've only posted a very small number of times on this thread. I am neither flouncing nor unconvinced of my own arguments, I just no longer wish to be drawn into discussion on this thread.

I would appreciate it if you would stop quoting/ tagging me - this is the second time I have asked you.

So what are you saying? That genocide isn’t taking place and the tv footage is doctored or edited?

It’s a shame you’ve reported so many posts on this thread because now no one can see what was actually said.

All the deletions seem to make it look like you’ve been backed into a corner of your own illogical making and then flounced

That is not what I said. Please don't tag me any more.

So for you it’s option 1?

You acknowledge Israel is committing genocide but you think that their actions are justified by the Hamas attacks on 7/10?

"Because Hamas said a thing once"?? Are you actually kidding me? Nothing about the actual events of 7th Oct??? And the stated intention to repeat those events?

Anyway I see this thread is going the way of all the others so I'll leave you to it.

The have nothing against Jews, they just want to "get rid of" the Jewish state and anyone who thinks there should be a Jewish state. I'm sure when the not-terrorists were bragging on the phone to their mums about how many Jews they killed it wasn't because they hate Jews or anything.

Please point to where anyone has said any of those thing you're accusing them of.

And I don't think you're really in a position to accuse others of childish insults. Pot kettle and all that

There we go - prime example.

No one supporting Israel’s position can give anything other than an insult or non-sequitur

Why is that? If this is such a clear moral case for Israel, why can no one defend their actions without resorting to these bizarrely childish insults?