Netanyahu rules out two state solution

“Ordinary Gazans then have the choice (and it is important that it is their choice). To stay and fight Israel in the chaos, destruction and misery under Hamas (or Hamas 2.0) or peace and prosperity under a West Bank model and control.”

@1dayatatime , Ordinary Gazans are not fighting Israel,so that is not an option. There is no peace or prosperity under a West Bank model and control so that also isn’t an acceptable option.

Could you use the IDF as your comparator rather than the U.K.?

I have seen figures that range from 35% to 70% of fighting age Israeli men & women have served in the IDF and can be called up as reservists.

There are actions that could be taken for example calls for Hamas to step down or be removed from Palestinians outside of Gaza or even the protesters in say London. Why isn't this happening?

Currently the absence of such calls might be seen as tacit support for Hamas.

I think its because we wouldn't know all that's being done via diplomatic channels. Someone already said upthread that Egypt asked Hamas to leave and they wouldn't. I expect there is considerable pressure on Hamas/Iran diplomatically. Probably why we haven't yet seen the regional escalation so many were worried about.

With respect of protesters, I am not a protester but assume most who are, are protesting the humanitarian crisis and wanting an immediate ceasefire. I don't think too much can be read into it about "tacit support for Hamas".

Personally I think if there was a ceasefire and aid going to Gaza so the risk of mass starvation was reduced then it would be a lot easier to talk about the future administration and "getting rid of Hamas". Otherwise Palestinians are understandably going to be focussed on the humanitarian crisis rather than politics and "who is in charge"

@1dayatatime There's more i would say but someone will be along to twist my words. Alot of Gazans prior to the war, were stuck between a rock and a hard place you could say.
They had to pay high taxes to Hamas and faced some difficulties living under them but at the same time due to the blockade were heavily dependant on them for bringing in necessities which at times were life saving/changing for them through the black market.
They also didn't have many choices, if they oust Hamas, then what's to say that they won't be replaced by a group that is worst like the PIJ. At times when you only have bad choices, you end up picking what you think is the lesser of the evils.
And when I talk about support, I mean prior to the war. Its impossible really for people to know how much support they have right now with the war raging on. I mean how exactly does one carry out a fair survey that is representative of the civilians whilst they are in the midst of war

@1dayatatime I think it's easy for those on the outside to expect certain things when right now they are fighting for survival whilst faced with a army that is killing them and their children in their thousands aswell as destroying their homes and livelihoods.
There are people from within Gaza, who oppose Hamas but it's not something we often see. I was reading a BBC article recently which actually showed different views including of those who oppose, il see if I can find it for you.
But opposing Hamas does not mean that they want Israel to remove Hamas in the way they are doing now where civilians are just seen as unfortunate collateral damage

www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/gazans-pre-war-views-hamas

How does anyone think any Palestinian can do anything at all? They're literally being starved to death - less than a 1/5th of the aid they need being allowed into Gaza. Palestines are fucked for a lifetime.

If there are 500k Hamas combatants which has been calculated by a PP then what's the plan - kill 500k people)l? Because if not, how is the 'eradicate Hamas' plan ever going to work.

Can someone post the quoted 60% of Palestinians supported Hamas poll which was taken pre October 2023?

@Parkingt111

"@Peeony I didn't say that there wasn't any support for Hamas. Only that it is unreasonable to expect ordinary civilians to be able to oust them and the implication that for the above reason, the killing of innocent civilians in such huge numbers is somewhat justified"

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I agree that it would be incredibly difficult for ordinary Gazans to oust Hamas for example the difficulties ordinary Libyans face when trying to oust Gadaffi.

There are actions that could be taken for example calls for Hamas to step down or be removed from Palestinians outside of Gaza or even the protesters in say London. Why isn't this happening?

Currently the absence of such calls might be seen as tacit support for Hamas.

@Peeony I didn't say that there wasn't any support for Hamas. Only that it is unreasonable to expect ordinary civilians to be able to oust them and the implication that for the above reason, the killing of innocent civilians in such huge numbers is somewhat justified

I agree it would be difficult to get rid of them, but I also don’t think we should assume the majority of Palestinians are helpless victims who don’t like Hamas.

1. They did elect Hamas in the first place.
2. There have been no significant attempts to oust Hamas
3. Polls show majority support for Hamas.

Im sure there are a range of views on Hamas but we shouldn’t assume Palestinians don’t support them just because we think they’re barbaric dictators. It’s colonial-type thinking that imposes Western values on other cultures.

Edited to add: just to make clear, even if they do support Hamas that doesn’t make it right (according to Western principles of war) to target civilians.

I agree with most of this but Ordinary Gazans then have the choice (and it is important that it is their choice). To stay and fight Israel in the chaos, destruction and misery under Hamas (or Hamas 2.0) or peace and prosperity under a West Bank model and control.

"Ordinary Gazans" don't appear to have any way to express their choice. Hamas are not going to let them do that, they are trapped in Gaza.

Unless you are suggesting a mechanism by which "Ordinary Gazans" can leave Gaza for the West Bank?

Yes.

@yummyscummymummy01

"What's the alternative to a two state solution that is being discussed in Israel? What are people envisioning? Genuine question."

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There are alot of bad faith posters simply seeking to agitate and spread further dissent and polarisation on this topic which only makes any solution or compromise that much harder to achieve.

However I will take your post in good faith as to what in my opinion could be a two part carrot and stick solution to the current crisis.

Firstly the stick, you have Hamas in charge of Gaza who are committed to the destruction of Israel. A call for ceasefire would mean no further Palestinian civilians being killed however it would leave Hamas still in charge meaning further Israeli civilians being killed. So whilst Hamas remain in place the choice is between Palestinian civilians or Israeli civilians being killed. To stop this Hamas must be removed from power and there are two options to achieve this:
A) asking them nicely to leave
B) removing them by force.
Given the Egyptians tried and failed on Option A that currently leaves Option B.

Secondly the carrot - you cannot just bomb Hamas out of existence without creating resentment and anger amongst ordinary Palestinians- all you will do is create Hamas 2.0.

Ordinary Palestinian need to be given an alternative path or hope for a better and more peaceful existence. To do this the West Bank needs to become an economic success, with control over its borders and the immediate halting of any further Israeli settlements with a view to dismantle existing settlements.

Ordinary Gazans then have the choice (and it is important that it is their choice). To stay and fight Israel in the chaos, destruction and misery under Hamas (or Hamas 2.0) or peace and prosperity under a West Bank model and control.

If the genuine concern of protesters or Gazans is to prevent further Gazan civilians being killed then the quickest way to achieve this is to call for Hamas to step down / leave Gaza and return the hostages. Otherwise Israel will continue their offensive creating further Palestinian civilian deaths.

Thank you.

I merely tagged you because you made a statement that Netanyahu won't accept 2 state solution with a sentence that Hamas won't accept a 2 state solution either as per hamas leader statement. That's all. Neither will accept.

I don't believe all Palestinians are hamas and therefore the comment you made to me about showing my prejudice was unfair and inaccurate.

OK my point is still relevant though. Hamas is a terrorist group, administering one Palestinian territory. Everyone agrees they need to go. I don't think what they say is particularly relevant to a solution because I don't think it can be claimed they are legitimately representing a Palestinian solution.

Netanyahu is democratically elected, Head of a state allied to the UK and the US. What he says is very relevant to a solution as most countries have committed to standing with Israel.

Why is pointing out the difficulties with Netanyahu's position such a problem on here?

Yes. I think where we disagree is that I don't think indiscriminate bombing of Gaza with the resulting humanitarian crisis is an effective way to get them out of power.

I think Israel walked into a trap by responding immediately with extreme force.

We are just going round in circles though as it's clear from your posts that you fully support Netanyahu's response. So let's not bother going back there again.

You @me in this post @AliceA2021 and I assumed because you were making a point about my previous post about referring to Palestinians/Hamas interchangeably.
I obviously misunderstood, I apologise for that, but I still don't know why you tagged me

Sorry - 40k women and 5k girls giving a total of 500k possible combatants. Edit function needs to be longer!

That makes it 6-8% of the 'pool' of all possible Palestinian combatants in Gaza actively fighting for Hamas.

What's the alternative to a two state solution that is being discussed in Israel? What are people envisioning? Genuine question.

You're right @PiersPlowman11 , it's more than 1.5-2% of the 'pool' of possible combatants.

I've done some sums, based on some assumptions (say if you want details - they're quite long!) and I've estimated a pool of possible Gazan combatants of 560,000
That's 400k men 18-50, 100k women 18-50, 50k boys 16-18, 10k girls 16-18)

(I've assumed similar proportion of men/women to the UK army. Stricter gender roles might make it less, but the fight is happening in their own country, which I'd expect to make women more likely to fight.
I've assumed adult proportions for 16-18yos in Gaza. In the UK, there are far fewer 16-18yos in the army, but I'm assuming immediacy of the conflict and fewer other options change that balance in Gaza. I'm excluding all under 16s)

So 30-40 thousand Hamas combatants is 5-7% of the 'pool' of all possible Palestinian combatants in Gaza. That's people actually fighting: many more will be giving active help.

That compares to a UK army of 186 thousand (including volunteer reserves): 0.27% of our total population, or 1% of our 'pool' of possible combatants.

The US has a bigger army proportionally than the UK: approximately 0.4% of their total population (of all ages), or 1.5% of their 'pool' of possible combatants. So still a significantly lower percentange than Palestinians actively fighting for Hamas in Gaza.

More reason to use meaningful diplomacy - and it takes 2 sides to do this. I also think that if it was made to work it would deflate any tendency for people to vote in right wing extremists or support terrorists- eventually.

@AdamRyan
Good morning, Adam.

So we agree - getting rid of Hamas is good for everyone. Best root for the Israelis to get it done as quickly as possible.

@Polka83
The only crime in war is starting it in the first place.

That’s why we should not do it. And yes, Geneva convention… ICJ trials… indulgent Western decadence. I know the theory.

In practice, war involves wanton savagery, for it is not enough to destroy a man’s means to fight; one must also destroy his will to fight. The stronger his will, the greater the barbarism.

The rule of war is that the biggest cnut wins. At the moment, that looks to be like Netanyahu.

This post of yours.

You take issue with something I didn't say. 🙄

@AdamRyan It's crazy that people suggest that the Palestinians somehow deserve what is happening because they didn't get rid of Hamas themselves. How do they expect ordinary citizens to achieve what one of the world's most powerful military backed by other powerful militaries have not managed to achieve yet? Its the worst type of victim blaming