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Conflict in the Middle East

Does IDF consider every man in Gaza to be Hamas?

111 replies

ConnieCounter · 16/01/2024 20:06

I'm trying to understand how many Hamas members have been killed.

Israel's stated aim in bombarding Gaza is to destroy Hamas, presumably by killing all their members. Surely, at over 100 days in, they need to justify this offensive, which has caused extremely high levels of civilian deaths and child deaths, by showing how successful they are being in their stated objective.

Hamas gives death tolls of total deaths, making it impossible to know how many are Hamas.

But looking at figures reported from the Israeli side yesterday, they say 9000 Hamas have been killed. They also cite a total death toll (using Hamas's figure) of over 23000.

That's almost 40% of the deaths.

Is Israel just counting every Palestinian man as a Hamas fighter? I don't see any other explanation.

And if they are doing this and nobody has a clue how many Hamas fighters they've actually killed, how on earth can this bombardment be justified, if its aim is to destroy Hamas?

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/the-war-in-numbers-9000-hamas-members-killed-11000-rockets-fired-into-israel/amp/

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Parkingt111 · 17/01/2024 21:03

What I would like to know is what is the IDF criteria for who is considered Hamas. Seeing as Hamas are the government of Gaza and have the political and armed faction. Like all governments, surely there will be civil servants and others who comes under their employment. So is anyone that has any link to the Hamas government killed?
From the figures the IDF have provided of Hamas members that have been killed, how is it known that they are members of Hamas?

Humdingerydoo · 17/01/2024 20:54

"im sure there are Israelis who are not happy with how it’s being handled , but they are probably not comfortable speaking up."

I take it you haven't spent much time with Israelis 🙈 They're not exactly known for holding back their opinions. I don't know anything about what you were posting about so don't have an opinion on it myself, but to say that Israelis don't dare speak up against injustice is just wrong. Israelis protest all sorts of things all the time, including for the rights of Palestinians.

Humdingerydoo · 17/01/2024 20:48

balamo · 17/01/2024 19:59

There are elderly, women and teenagers actively involved in Hamas too.

This is just sickening, and is only being said by the poster to justify the deaths of innocents. Why not include the children too since you're not ashamed to include the elderly? Why leave one group out.

I take it you don't consider those who were 'hosting' the hostages as part of Hamas? Some of them were elderly.

I'm quite clearly not saying every single old person is Hamas, I'm saying some in Hamas are elderly. Just like some in Hamas are women, and some are teenagers. Not all members of Hamas are men and and not all men are Hamas.

Stop telling me I'm justifying any innocent deaths. That's a disgusting and false accusation.

queenofarles · 17/01/2024 20:45

This is from the Guardian earlier this week; An unlikely charge of intent to commit treason landed Meir Baruchin, a grey-haired, softly spoken history and civics teacher, in the solitary confinement wing of Jerusalem’s notorious “Russian Compound” prison in early November.
The evidence compiled by police who handcuffed him, then drove to his apartment and ransacked it as he watched, was a series of Facebook posts he’d made, mourning the civilians killed in Gaza, criticising the Israeli military, and warning against wars of revenge.

im sure there are Israelis who are not happy with how it’s being handled , but they are probably not comfortable speaking up.

stomachameleon · 17/01/2024 20:32

@balamo most of hamas' Hierarchy would be considered elderly.

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67103298

ConnieCounter · 17/01/2024 20:14

Does anyone who supports Israel not worry about this?

Does it not bother you that an army you express support for is killing civilians in their tens of thousands with seemingly no plan, or even understanding of the difference between a combatant/terrorist and a civilian? Surely knowing your enemy is war 101? Or are you OK with it because they're Palestinians?

I'm quite disgusted at some of the attitudes and posts on this thread.

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balamo · 17/01/2024 19:59

Humdingerydoo · 16/01/2024 20:16

Hamas isn't only made up of men. There are elderly, women and teenagers actively involved in Hamas too. As in teenagers who went in to Israel to take hostages etc, so not just assumed to be part of Hamas because their parents are.

How Israel knows the number of dead who were Hamas, I have no idea. I'm assuming it's based on intelligence but I personally have no clue how accurate it is. I just wanted to point out that they will be including others than just men in their figures too.

There are elderly, women and teenagers actively involved in Hamas too.

This is just sickening, and is only being said by the poster to justify the deaths of innocents. Why not include the children too since you're not ashamed to include the elderly? Why leave one group out.

ConnieCounter · 17/01/2024 19:46

stomachameleon · 17/01/2024 19:11

What confusion? They're just killing people indiscriminately.

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stomachameleon · 17/01/2024 19:11

You can understand where the confusion lies

www.jns.org/661-terrorists-tied-to-oct-7-to-get-pa-pay-for-slay-stipends/

25milesfromhome · 17/01/2024 18:54

Auvergne63 · 17/01/2024 17:24

This thread is about Hamas in Gaza, I was trying to keep it brief.
Excuse me but you brought up the Second World War in this thread. Double standard strikes again.

Excuse you, I brought up a few examples of mass killings in a short space of time during a war to correct a false claim made on this thread that No war in history has ever killed over 30,000 in such a short space of time. I deliberately didn’t mention they were mass killings of Jews so as not to distract from the topic, yet that was the one thing you decided to focus upon in order to indulge in some moralising whataboutery rather than addressing a single point in my post.

The rest of my post was a continuation on how hyperbole and falsity is unhelpful here, with regards to the claim that the IDF are not to be believed, ever, not even when they admitted to their mistakes and actually confirmed some Gazan men they detained and mistreated were not Hamas.

ScrollingLeaves · 17/01/2024 18:30

Jollyoldfruit · 17/01/2024 14:24

I deplore the loss of life both in Israel on October 7th and in Gaza.
But let’s not be hypocritical.

2997 people died on 9/11.

And as a result this.

  • Key Findings432,093 civilians have died violent deaths as a direct result of the U.S. post-9/11 wars.
  • An estimated 3.6-3.8 million people have died indirectly in post-9/11 war zones, bringing the total death toll to at least 4.5-4.7 million and counting.
  • More than 7.6 million children under five in post-9/11 war zones are suffering from acute malnutrition
  • War deaths from malnutrition and a damaged health system and environment likely far outnumber deaths from combat.

Yes, I don’t know where to check all you wrote about but entirely agree that the results of the retaliation for 9/11 have been absolutely dreadful.

And widely believed now, I believe, to have been very counter productive. Isn’t that why Biden said to Israel something to the effect of, ‘Don’t make the same mistake we did’.

You are right to point out what we and the US did before, but it was not all right.

eluveitie · 17/01/2024 18:06

Auvergne63 · 17/01/2024 17:24

This thread is about Hamas in Gaza, I was trying to keep it brief.
Excuse me but you brought up the Second World War in this thread. Double standard strikes again.

What double standard?

MissyB1 · 17/01/2024 17:41

MissyB1 · 17/01/2024 17:39

Pretty sure the babies in the incubators weren’t terrorists, or the many many children with limbs blown off. But perhaps you think they should have been wearing T shirts that declared whether they were or weren’t?

Sorry the above post was for @Bubbleohseven

MissyB1 · 17/01/2024 17:39

Pretty sure the babies in the incubators weren’t terrorists, or the many many children with limbs blown off. But perhaps you think they should have been wearing T shirts that declared whether they were or weren’t?

Auvergne63 · 17/01/2024 17:28

ChalkWitch · 17/01/2024 16:18

Target attacks where exactly? Where exactly are the Hamas operatives? If it’s not that big a mystery I’m sure you’ll be able to inform me.

We are repeatedly told Hamas are hiding in tunnels...

Auvergne63 · 17/01/2024 17:24

25milesfromhome · 17/01/2024 15:17

I never forget them and thank you for the whataboutery used to deflect and not address my point in any way. Well done for All Lives Mattering the Holocaust.

I was addressing the claim that No war in history has ever killed over 30,000 in such a short space of time, and eradication being the objective- demonstrably false, as illustrated by the few examples I gave, of one group specifically and officially targeted for annihilation, killed in equally large numbers, but in the space of two days, during a war.
I can also talk all the live long day about the Roma, the other group specifically targeted for annihilation during the Holocaust if you’d like and happy to c&p a derailing wall of text if you feel you need it, but as this thread is about Hamas in Gaza, I was trying to keep it brief.

Edited

This thread is about Hamas in Gaza, I was trying to keep it brief.
Excuse me but you brought up the Second World War in this thread. Double standard strikes again.

ConnieCounter · 17/01/2024 16:52

ChalkWitch · 17/01/2024 16:18

Target attacks where exactly? Where exactly are the Hamas operatives? If it’s not that big a mystery I’m sure you’ll be able to inform me.

Well that's for Israel to know. They're the ones claiming that they're destroying Hamas. Surely they have military intelligence.

Also, you misunderstood my previous post. I was commenting on how armies other than Israel target their attacks. I wasn't claiming to know where Hamas are, because obviously that's an insane thing to say but apparently you need to be told that.

Any comment on them killing every male in sight? Or do you think that's reasonable?

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ChalkWitch · 17/01/2024 16:18

ConnieCounter · 17/01/2024 15:22

It should target its attacks. It's not that big a mystery. Most other armies manage to do it.

Target attacks where exactly? Where exactly are the Hamas operatives? If it’s not that big a mystery I’m sure you’ll be able to inform me.

Coyoacan · 17/01/2024 15:52

PeasfullPerson · 16/01/2024 21:28

As far as I’m aware they haven’t shared any definition regarding membership of Hamas or given any information on how they verify their targets were members of Hamas.

IDF soldiers were filmed chanting about there being no innocent civilians and an ex leader of Shin Bet says most Israelis believe that all Palestines are/or support Hamas.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/14/shin-bet-ami-ayalon-calls-on-israel-release-intifada-leader-marwan-barghouti

IDF have also shown themselves to be trigger happy, resulting in the death of three Israeli hostages by themselves.

This. I believe babies are the most ardent supporters of hamas

Scirocco · 17/01/2024 15:34

Pretty much. It didn't matter whether my friends and colleagues were even Palestinian. When it came to the men, they were male so they were humiliated, injured and killed.

mathanxiety · 17/01/2024 15:28

I think it's clear from the fact that they killed three escaped male Israeli hostages that they are targeting pretty much all males of military age.

ConnieCounter · 17/01/2024 15:22

ChalkWitch · 17/01/2024 13:28

@ConnieCounter what do you think Israel should do?
Not what they shouldn’t do, but what should they do to eradicate Hamas to prevent their genocidal intent?
What would move this forward?

It should target its attacks. It's not that big a mystery. Most other armies manage to do it.

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25milesfromhome · 17/01/2024 15:17

Auvergne63 · 17/01/2024 14:42

A few examples of mass executions (by shooting) in much shorter periods of time during WW2, the objective being the eradication of one specific group of people.
Let's not forget that others, who the Nazi regime deemed "undesirable" such as Gipsies Roma, Jehovah witnesses, political opponents, gays, resistants, people of colour, people with learning and physical disabilities, Slavs, Russians and the list goes on, were also the victims of mass executions along side Jews.
They matter too.

I never forget them and thank you for the whataboutery used to deflect and not address my point in any way. Well done for All Lives Mattering the Holocaust.

I was addressing the claim that No war in history has ever killed over 30,000 in such a short space of time, and eradication being the objective- demonstrably false, as illustrated by the few examples I gave, of one group specifically and officially targeted for annihilation, killed in equally large numbers, but in the space of two days, during a war.
I can also talk all the live long day about the Roma, the other group specifically targeted for annihilation during the Holocaust if you’d like and happy to c&p a derailing wall of text if you feel you need it, but as this thread is about Hamas in Gaza, I was trying to keep it brief.

stomachameleon · 17/01/2024 15:02

Hiding in plain sight.

Does IDF consider every man in Gaza to be Hamas?
Auvergne63 · 17/01/2024 14:42

A few examples of mass executions (by shooting) in much shorter periods of time during WW2, the objective being the eradication of one specific group of people.
Let's not forget that others, who the Nazi regime deemed "undesirable" such as Gipsies Roma, Jehovah witnesses, political opponents, gays, resistants, people of colour, people with learning and physical disabilities, Slavs, Russians and the list goes on, were also the victims of mass executions along side Jews.
They matter too.