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Conflict in the Middle East

Does IDF consider every man in Gaza to be Hamas?

111 replies

ConnieCounter · 16/01/2024 20:06

I'm trying to understand how many Hamas members have been killed.

Israel's stated aim in bombarding Gaza is to destroy Hamas, presumably by killing all their members. Surely, at over 100 days in, they need to justify this offensive, which has caused extremely high levels of civilian deaths and child deaths, by showing how successful they are being in their stated objective.

Hamas gives death tolls of total deaths, making it impossible to know how many are Hamas.

But looking at figures reported from the Israeli side yesterday, they say 9000 Hamas have been killed. They also cite a total death toll (using Hamas's figure) of over 23000.

That's almost 40% of the deaths.

Is Israel just counting every Palestinian man as a Hamas fighter? I don't see any other explanation.

And if they are doing this and nobody has a clue how many Hamas fighters they've actually killed, how on earth can this bombardment be justified, if its aim is to destroy Hamas?

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/the-war-in-numbers-9000-hamas-members-killed-11000-rockets-fired-into-israel/amp/

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ScrollingLeaves · 17/01/2024 22:10

Humdingerydoo · 17/01/2024 20:54

"im sure there are Israelis who are not happy with how it’s being handled , but they are probably not comfortable speaking up."

I take it you haven't spent much time with Israelis 🙈 They're not exactly known for holding back their opinions. I don't know anything about what you were posting about so don't have an opinion on it myself, but to say that Israelis don't dare speak up against injustice is just wrong. Israelis protest all sorts of things all the time, including for the rights of Palestinians.

I too read about him and having done so also have the clear impression that it is not wise to speak out.

Arresting Arabs and Left-wingers: How Israel Intends to Crack Down on Domestic Dissent Over Gaza War
Even if some of these statements are uncomfortable for Israelis to hear, they should be permitted as long as they don’t constitute genuine incitement
Haaretz Nov 14 2023

Does anyone know if Israeli television channels are showing what we in the U.K. are shown about Gaza? Or are they mostly showing the IDF, discussing 7 October atrocities, speaking to hostages, or interviewing politicians? For example, can people see BBC, Channel 4 news, or Al Jazeera news?

AllIsWellish · 17/01/2024 22:07

stomachameleon · 17/01/2024 21:57

How great it is that people in Israel are allowed to speak their mind,

Sorry I am confused now. They can or they can't?

You do realise some posters are going to think people in Israel are able to speak their minds and other posters might think that they can't ?

Parkingt111 · 17/01/2024 22:02

Standing together is holding a protest tomorrow by the way.
It's going to be in Tel Aviv. Although the last two protests they planned were banned, they said that they were going to take the matter to the high court so not sure if they did and that's what allowed it.

Humdingerydoo · 17/01/2024 21:57

Auvergne63 · 17/01/2024 21:41

This is from the Times of Israel.

Police break up a protest calling for a ceasefire in Tel Aviv on January 16, 2024.
Israel Police have aggressively broken up a small protest in Tel Aviv calling for a ceasefire in Gaza.
Footage shows officers violently stripping away signs that read, “stop the massacre” from the handful of demonstrators.
Police reportedly told the demonstrators that they were breaking up the protest because it was “harming the feelings of the public.”

This clearly demonstrates that calling for a ceasefire in Israel is far from being safe.

You missed a part. Might have to click the picture to see the last sentence there.

Does IDF consider every man in Gaza to be Hamas?
stomachameleon · 17/01/2024 21:57

How great it is that people in Israel are allowed to speak their mind,

Sorry I am confused now. They can or they can't?

PeasfullPerson · 17/01/2024 21:51

How great it is that people in Israel are allowed to speak their mind, shame that people in the West Bank can’t do the same.

I’m sure there are many of us on this thread, who if they lived in the West Bank, would be unfairly slated as antisemitic supporters of Hamas, and god knows what would happen to us

Personally, if you were to turn up to my house you would most likely find an unremarkable middle aged woman folding laundry, who simply wishes people would stop killing each other.

Humdingerydoo · 17/01/2024 21:45

Oh FFS all I said was Israel isn't a country where it is illegal to protest or speak your mind, which I felt was what the poster was trying to imply and was the only part I was challenging. That's why that was the only part I quoted. I have no idea what the man you're all talking about actually posted so I can't, and won't, comment on any of it!

Auvergne63 · 17/01/2024 21:41

This is from the Times of Israel.

Police break up a protest calling for a ceasefire in Tel Aviv on January 16, 2024.
Israel Police have aggressively broken up a small protest in Tel Aviv calling for a ceasefire in Gaza.
Footage shows officers violently stripping away signs that read, “stop the massacre” from the handful of demonstrators.
Police reportedly told the demonstrators that they were breaking up the protest because it was “harming the feelings of the public.”

This clearly demonstrates that calling for a ceasefire in Israel is far from being safe.

stomachameleon · 17/01/2024 21:35

@ConnieCounter it's easy to print those stories because they are reflective of the guardian In general.

It was confirmed on the ama there were lots of groups in Israel anti war and people in Israel working with people in Gaza/ peace related groups.

Did you read it?

FOJN · 17/01/2024 21:26

Humdingerydoo · 17/01/2024 21:20

Because you're trying to imply that Israel is a country where it isn't safe to protest or vocalise an opinion that doesn't follow government lines, which is just not accurate. There might be individuals who don't dare speak up but that's not because they're scared of what the government will do to them 🙄

"All Israelis" aren't ok with anything. They're not some homogeneous group of people. Some speak up, some don't.

No clearly Israelis are not a hive mind, some of them disagree with you about their freedom to express an opinion without repercussions.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/22/an-atmosphere-of-fear-free-speech-under-threat-in-israel-activists-say

"Protests in sympathy with Gaza have been dispersed with force and Israel’s chief of police, Yaakov Shabtai, said last week: “Anyone who wants to identify with Gaza is welcome. I will put them on buses now that are headed there and I will help him get there.”

ConnieCounter · 17/01/2024 21:26

Humdingerydoo · 17/01/2024 21:06

I have no idea. I literally said I don't know anything about it. I was just saying that Israelis aren't known for holding back their opinions, and that's the part of the post I was commenting on. It was a completely unfair comment for that poster to make.

You said people aren't afraid to speak out. How can you be so sure? Is this man lying about his experience or should we believe him?

Also @stomachameleon I wondered how long it would be until someone dismissed the man's experience because it was printed in the Guardian. It didn't take you long 😁

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Humdingerydoo · 17/01/2024 21:20

queenofarles · 17/01/2024 21:15

But why is it unfair? Humdingerydoo
there must be people who are not comfortable speaking up against the IDF, specially since it’s a difficult time for
the whole country.

I think it’s unfair to say all Israelis are ok with all the deaths.

Because you're trying to imply that Israel is a country where it isn't safe to protest or vocalise an opinion that doesn't follow government lines, which is just not accurate. There might be individuals who don't dare speak up but that's not because they're scared of what the government will do to them 🙄

"All Israelis" aren't ok with anything. They're not some homogeneous group of people. Some speak up, some don't.

Parkingt111 · 17/01/2024 21:20

@FOJN thanks I will give it a read.

FOJN · 17/01/2024 21:18

Parkingt111 · 17/01/2024 21:12

This is probably for a different thread but does anyone know how the IDF judge what is and isn't acceptable collateral damage? Thousands of children have died and we are told that they were unfortunate collateral damage. So if a building has one or two confirmed Hamas members and a hundred civilians, then is that building ok to bomb and regard the innocent deaths as collateral damage?

That does seem to be the case, they call the type of targets you are describing "power targets".

www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/

Parkingt111 · 17/01/2024 21:18

@stomachameleon i have read the AMA and she has previously said that she doesn't know about military tactics.
I wasn't asking anyone to guess, I was asking if anyone knows ie links or sources

queenofarles · 17/01/2024 21:15

But why is it unfair? Humdingerydoo
there must be people who are not comfortable speaking up against the IDF, specially since it’s a difficult time for
the whole country.

I think it’s unfair to say all Israelis are ok with all the deaths.

Parkingt111 · 17/01/2024 21:14

If anyone has read anything or has material on the above questions

Parkingt111 · 17/01/2024 21:13

@stomachameleon how can you know my tone over text? I'm asking genuine questions, not rhetorical or sarcastic ones if that's what you are thinking

stomachameleon · 17/01/2024 21:13

Does anyone know an IDF spokesman for the last couple of questions? Anyone?

stomachameleon · 17/01/2024 21:12

@Parkingt111 perhaps those questions are better asked to the lady on the ama... you know the lady who actually lives in Israel instead of asking people to second guess on here. She is still answering questions?

I will be interested to see if your tone is still the same on there.

Parkingt111 · 17/01/2024 21:12

This is probably for a different thread but does anyone know how the IDF judge what is and isn't acceptable collateral damage? Thousands of children have died and we are told that they were unfortunate collateral damage. So if a building has one or two confirmed Hamas members and a hundred civilians, then is that building ok to bomb and regard the innocent deaths as collateral damage?

stomachameleon · 17/01/2024 21:10

@queenofarles it was confirmed on the AMA that there is lots of disquiet and people speaking up in Israel about the war and how best to get the rest of the hostages returned.

We only ever hear about the Isolated cases though (especially in papers like the guardian) of someone treated badly for speaking out.

Israel is still a country at war. And people are nervous and worried about who to trust. Look at the peace activists in the kibbutzim who allowed people in who then betrayed them. People are frightened.

At least he didn't meet the same fate as suspected collaborators in the West Bank.

Humdingerydoo · 17/01/2024 21:06

ConnieCounter · 17/01/2024 21:04

So why was that man fired from his job and thrown into prison for speaking up for Palestinians?

I have no idea. I literally said I don't know anything about it. I was just saying that Israelis aren't known for holding back their opinions, and that's the part of the post I was commenting on. It was a completely unfair comment for that poster to make.

Parkingt111 · 17/01/2024 21:06

Due to the blockade, many a time the civilians rely on Hamas to get essential items from the black market. Does that mean anyone who has had any contact with the Hamas government in Gaza are also considered as having links to Hamas and therefore killed?

ConnieCounter · 17/01/2024 21:04

Humdingerydoo · 17/01/2024 20:54

"im sure there are Israelis who are not happy with how it’s being handled , but they are probably not comfortable speaking up."

I take it you haven't spent much time with Israelis 🙈 They're not exactly known for holding back their opinions. I don't know anything about what you were posting about so don't have an opinion on it myself, but to say that Israelis don't dare speak up against injustice is just wrong. Israelis protest all sorts of things all the time, including for the rights of Palestinians.

So why was that man fired from his job and thrown into prison for speaking up for Palestinians?

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