Page 32 | Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

Toggenburgsaregreat · 2024-01-15T10:01:25+00:00

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war. However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?) And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups? What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

DownNative · 16/01/2024 15:59

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 14:09

That's not what the OP said. So, you do need to since you're misrepresenting their point on those examples
Am I though? She hasn’t confirmed it either way. And if that isn’t what she meant I’m not clear what her point was.

On the contrary, the two reasons I gave is the main reasons for not taking in Palestinian refugees
Yes but not the only reasons. I’m not sure how you would define the “main” reasons

A clear majority of Palestinians support Palestinian terrorist groups in both Gaza and the West Bank.
And why is that?

"Am I though? She hasn’t confirmed it either way. And if that isn’t what she meant I’m not clear what her point was."

I believe OP has. Its clear some have been willfully misinterpreting their post to suit their own narrative. 🤔

"Yes but not the only reasons. I’m not sure how you would define the “main” reasons."

The States themselves have stated these reasons.

"And why is that?"

It is neither understandable nor valid for any proportion of any society to support any terrorist group that's dedicated to murder and destruction.

So, you're not denying there is widespread support amongst Palestinians for multiple terrorist groups.

Good to see that admission. 👍

Auvergne63 · 16/01/2024 15:38

Palestinians are not terrorists, Hamas are. Let's be precise here, otherwise it sounds like every single Palestinian (babies, children for example) is a terrorist, and, according to the Israeli government, needs to be eliminated.
I am sure, it isn't what you mean or is it?

Scirocco · 16/01/2024 15:35

What do you think should happen to the people of Gaza while people are 'dealing' with Iran?

Original poster

Toggenburgsaregreat · 16/01/2024 14:09

My opinion is, in line with Biden, that we need to deal directly with the source of the problem which is Iran, designated in 1984 as a purveyor of State Sponsored of Terrorism.

Iran continued its support for terrorist-related activity including support for Hezbollah, Palestinian, Houthis and various terrorist and militant groups in Iraq, Gaza (Hamas) Syria, Bahrain, and elsewhere throughout the Middle East.

Iran uses the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps-Qods Force (IRGC-QF) to provide financial support to terrorist organizations, provide cover for associated covert operations, and create instability in the region.

Iran doesn't want to get it's hands dirty and wants to be able to distance itself from the activities of it's proxies. The cynical joke at the moment is that 'Iran will fight to the last Houthi, but not the last Iranian". ( ! )

That's why I was surprised when Iran showed it's hand and directly attacked targets in Iraq and Syria yesterday. Hence my comment about a 'boil coming to a head' (Which someone actually took offence at )

Biden has already sent a message to Iran. No-one know what that is, but I assume it's along the lines of 'cease and desist or else'.

The ball is now in Iran's court.

OP posts:

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 14:09

That's not what the OP said. So, you do need to since you're misrepresenting their point on those examples
Am I though? She hasn’t confirmed it either way. And if that isn’t what she meant I’m not clear what her point was.

On the contrary, the two reasons I gave is the main reasons for not taking in Palestinian refugees
Yes but not the only reasons. I’m not sure how you would define the “main” reasons

A clear majority of Palestinians support Palestinian terrorist groups in both Gaza and the West Bank.
And why is that?

Scirocco · 16/01/2024 13:43

Toggenburgsaregreat · 16/01/2024 13:36

" so, do you think that Palestinians matter?"

All lives matter.

"What are your thoughts on over 23,000 people dying in Gaza?"

The same as I think about 357,000 killed in Yemen, 300,000 killed in Darfur, 506,000+ in the Syrian Civil War (still ongoing), 383,000+ in the South Sudanese Civil War, 520,000 due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine (still ongoing) - a terrible tragedy.

Show quote history

So, if all lives matter and the deaths of over 23,000 people in Gaza are a terrible tragedy, what are your thoughts on what should be done next?

DownNative · 16/01/2024 13:41

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 13:22

Do want me to comment on all your points? Ok I’ll do that.

No, you haven't made a proper argument against it which would include undermining their list of examples.
I don’t need to. I’m arguing they’re being unfair to say all Palestinians should be considered violent/troublemaker's. I don’t need to deny some of them are.

But the list of examples happened, didn't they?
I assume they did

Those events along with the potential for inability to return is why they don't want Palestinians en masse, isn't it?
It’s not the only reason. They don’t want Israel to “win” and gain control of the Palestinians territories.

Also there are a lot jihadist factions (this so called axis of resistance) and I doubt the Palestinians are in control of it. It’s more to do with Iran isn’t it?

Those Arab States have acknowledged Palestinians have been failed by Palestinian leaders for decades, haven't they?
I don’t know. Hamas is probably not well thought of.

Edited

"I don’t need to. I’m arguing they’re being unfair to say all Palestinians should be considered violent/troublemaker's. I don’t need to deny some of them are."

That's not what the OP said. So, you do need to since you're misrepresenting their point on those examples. 🤦‍♂️

"It’s not the only reason. They don’t want Israel to “win” and gain control of the Palestinians territories."

On the contrary, the two reasons I gave is the main reasons for not taking in Palestinian refugees.

The direction of travel from 1973 to 2023 is Arab States normalisation of relations with Israel. Beginning with Egypt and close to it with Saudi when Hamas attacked.

"...there are a lot jihadist factions (this so called axis of resistance) and I doubt the Palestinians are in control of it. It’s more to do with Iran isn’t it?"

A clear majority of Palestinians support Palestinian terrorist groups in both Gaza and the West Bank.

Iran funds them, but these groups can operate independently of Iran including manufacturing weapons inside Gaza themselves. Weapons capabilities have massively improved since 2008.

Original poster

Toggenburgsaregreat · 16/01/2024 13:36

Scirocco · 16/01/2024 13:19

@Toggenburgsaregreat so, do you think that Palestinians matter?

What are your thoughts on over 23,000 people dying in Gaza?

" so, do you think that Palestinians matter?"

All lives matter.

"What are your thoughts on over 23,000 people dying in Gaza?"

The same as I think about 357,000 killed in Yemen, 300,000 killed in Darfur, 506,000+ in the Syrian Civil War (still ongoing), 383,000+ in the South Sudanese Civil War, 520,000 due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine (still ongoing) - a terrible tragedy.

OP posts:

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 13:23

The above comment was for DownNative

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 13:22

Do want me to comment on all your points? Ok I’ll do that.

No, you haven't made a proper argument against it which would include undermining their list of examples.
I don’t need to. I’m arguing they’re being unfair to say all Palestinians should be considered violent/troublemaker's. I don’t need to deny some of them are.

But the list of examples happened, didn't they?
I assume they did

Those events along with the potential for inability to return is why they don't want Palestinians en masse, isn't it?
It’s not the only reason. They don’t want Israel to “win” and gain control of the Palestinians territories.

Also there are a lot jihadist factions (this so called axis of resistance) and I doubt the Palestinians are in control of it. It’s more to do with Iran isn’t it?

Those Arab States have acknowledged Palestinians have been failed by Palestinian leaders for decades, haven't they?
I don’t know. Hamas is probably not well thought of.

Scirocco · 16/01/2024 13:19

@Toggenburgsaregreat so, do you think that Palestinians matter?

What are your thoughts on over 23,000 people dying in Gaza?

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 13:13

Why are you highly selective in responding?
What do you mean?

Original poster

Toggenburgsaregreat · 16/01/2024 13:09

Dulra · 16/01/2024 12:47

Your facts do not address your original question. Why are people looking for a ceasefire and what it can achieve. You appear to be focused now on demonstrating why Palestinians don't matter

Show quote history

"You appear to be focused now on demonstrating why Palestinians don't matter"

I never said that they "didn't matter", so please don't put words in my mouth.

I can't help it if the facts don't support your notion of Palestinians as victims.

OP posts:

DownNative · 16/01/2024 13:03

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 11:58

But the list of examples happened, didn't they?
Im not saying they didnt. Are you actually understanding what I’m saying?

Why are you highly selective in responding? 🤷‍♂️

Dulra · 16/01/2024 12:47

Toggenburgsaregreat · 16/01/2024 12:41

Are you more interested in semantics than facts?

Show quote history

Your facts do not address your original question. Why are people looking for a ceasefire and what it can achieve. You appear to be focused now on demonstrating why Palestinians don't matter

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 12:45

Are you more interested in semantics than facts?
You’re making a generalisation.

Original poster

Toggenburgsaregreat · 16/01/2024 12:41

Dulra · 16/01/2024 12:25

I don't think they are understanding. The list of examples may have happened but the blanket use of the word "they" when talking about an entire people is inappropriate and unnecessary. Be specific about who "they" are because it is definitely not the people currently losing their lives and homes and families. It is clinical and dehumanising

Show quote history

Are you more interested in semantics than facts?

OP posts:

Original poster

Toggenburgsaregreat · 16/01/2024 12:38

@lettherebepeaceintheworld More info here;

Relevant paragraphs :

"Egypt has so far rejected the idea of displaced Palestinians moving into Sinai. But there is the possibility that a large number of Gazans will seek entry. This is separate to the Gaza residents with foreign citizenship who are already waiting at the border to cross.
Egypt is against allowing Gazans crossing the border in large numbers because it opposes any encroachment on its sovereignty in the Sinai Peninsula. Its major concern is that displaced Palestinians may establish a permanent residence in its territory, potentially undermining the already delicate security and economic situation.
The situation also poses a large security risk to Egypt.
First, border breaches by refugees from Gaza, some of whom may be armed individuals affiliated with Hamas or other radical groups, could export instability to Sinai. For Egypt, there is a danger that there could be more terrorist attacks and instability as there were in Sinai before the 2017 understanding with Hamas. Some of those attacks were carried out by well-armed and trained Gaza-based militant cells."

https://theconversation.com/hamas-israeli-conflict-whats-at-stake-for-egypt-215710

OP posts:

Dulra · 16/01/2024 12:25

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 11:58

But the list of examples happened, didn't they?
Im not saying they didnt. Are you actually understanding what I’m saying?

I don't think they are understanding. The list of examples may have happened but the blanket use of the word "they" when talking about an entire people is inappropriate and unnecessary. Be specific about who "they" are because it is definitely not the people currently losing their lives and homes and families. It is clinical and dehumanising

Original poster

Toggenburgsaregreat · 16/01/2024 12:16

lettherebepeaceintheworld · 16/01/2024 10:34

Gosh I didn't know any of this. Do you have any sources or links for these?

Show quote history

I'll try and look them up when I have a minute but here's one for starters.

I have posted the whole article to stop being accused of being 'selective' but the salient paragraphs are these -

"Today, Egyptian nationality can be granted to Palestinians but only in a strict set of circumstances, which bars the majority from naturalising and obtaining many basic rights, prompting criticism from those who sympathise with the Palestinian plight in the country.
However, others defend this position, arguing that granting Palestinians Egyptian nationality would jeopardise their identity and cause. This argument goes back to the Arab League's resolution 462 issued in 1952, which stipulated that the League's policy towards the Palestinian refugees needed to be based on the principle of their eventual return, and guarded against naturalisation. "

"The assassination of then culture minister, Yusuf Al-Sibai in early 1978 at the hands of a militant Palestinian faction also played a decisive role in Egypt's new hostility towards its Palestinian refugees. This attitude has only deteriorated since, apart from a short period of relative respite during the years of the 2011 January revolution and the rule of late president Mohammed Morsi (2012-13). "

"In the aftermath of the 2013 military coup, Egyptian media platforms accused Palestinians of agitating for the revolution, infiltrating Egypt's borders, and organising jailbreaks."

https://www.newarab.com/features/no-recognition-no-rights-palestinians-egypt

OP posts:

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 11:58

But the list of examples happened, didn't they?
Im not saying they didnt. Are you actually understanding what I’m saying?

DownNative · 16/01/2024 11:55

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 11:48

If you believe that to be the case, why don't you construct a PROPER argument against it instead of mere rhetoric?
It is a proper argument.
Palestinian Israelis can’t have citizenship but it’s fine because no other country will even have them? I mean come on.
It’s the terrorists they don’t want but not all Palestinians are terrorists.

No, you haven't made a proper argument against it which would include undermining their list of examples.

But the list of examples happened, didn't they?

Those events along with the potential for inability to return is why they don't want Palestinians en masse, isn't it?

Those Arab States have acknowledged Palestinians have been failed by Palestinian leaders for decades, haven't they?

Original poster

Toggenburgsaregreat · 16/01/2024 11:52

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 10:21

No-one will accept Palestinian refugees - not even the Muslim states that pretend to support them.

They were accepted by Jordan, where they tried to assassinate the King and take over the country, teamed up with Syria and triggered a full-scale war.
They were ejected into Syria, where they caused problems and were forced out into Lebanon.
In Lebanon, they helped trigger a civil war that has utterly destroyed the country.
In Egypt, they fomented terror attacks. Egypt classifies Hamas as a terror group and closed the border long ago. Their defences against Gazan incursion look like the Berlin wall:
In Kuwait they supported the invading Iraqis, and were ejected after their defeat.
In Gaza, Hamas massacred at least 600 Fatah supporters after they took power.

Hmmmmm, are you trying to say Palestinians are the source of all problems in the Middle East now?

Edited

@Fussandmisery Hmmmmm, are you trying to say Palestinians are the source of all problems in the Middle East now?

I'm posting facts.

How people interpret them is up to them.

OP posts:

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 11:48

If you believe that to be the case, why don't you construct a PROPER argument against it instead of mere rhetoric?
It is a proper argument.
Palestinian Israelis can’t have citizenship but it’s fine because no other country will even have them? I mean come on.
It’s the terrorists they don’t want but not all Palestinians are terrorists.

DownNative · 16/01/2024 11:33

Fussandmisery · 16/01/2024 11:14

The OP clearly isn't saying that at all and was obviously stating one of the main reasons why neighbouring Arab States don't want to take in Palestinian refugees.

Perhaps. But saying that no-one wants the Palestinians because they (as a homogeneous group) just cause trouble has a slight whiff of stereotyping about it.

I’m sure some terrorists/assassins /causers of problems are Palestinians but I’m sure plenty aren’t.

If you believe that to be the case, why don't you construct a PROPER argument against it instead of mere rhetoric?

It's true that neighbouring Arab States haven't forgotten the history the OP set out. Due to that they don't want Palestinians leaving Gaza as it would saddle them with the Gazans permanently. History shows their territory will then ne used to launch attacks against Israel which threatens the security of their States.

Egypt, for example, cites this in addition to saying any future Palestinian State has to be fully demilitarised.

These States feel they cannot take that risk. Egypt doesn't want to risk any link up between Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas in their territory, so say no too.

The logic is since Israel isn't going anywhere and cannot be militarily defeated by Palestinian terrorist groups, the next best thing is to ensure Palestinians cannot rebuild terrorist weapons capabilities in future. And change the governing authority in Gaza.

See Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman's comments in 2018 too.

"Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best."

Otto von Bismarck

Whatever is attainable becomes the priority.