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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

920 replies

Toggenburgsaregreat · 15/01/2024 10:01

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

OP posts:
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82
anotherlevel · 17/01/2024 09:54

@Toggenburgsaregreat
MN HQ will always remove personal attacks if you ask them.
Simple.

Thank you for that I really wasn't aware they could be reported. Grin

lettherebepeaceintheworld · 17/01/2024 09:54

Parkingt111 · 17/01/2024 07:39

Just a general report that was uodated in Feb 2022 about business risk. The first sentence which is: The British Government defines the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPTs) as consisting of two separate land areas: the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/overseas-business-risk-palestinian-territories/overseas-business-risk-the-occupied-palestinian-territories

Hi Parking. Do you consider this to the UK's legal position or a descriptor?

lettherebepeaceintheworld · 17/01/2024 09:51

Parkingt111 · 17/01/2024 07:35

The UK considers Gaza as occupied. If you go on any of the Gov.Uk sites that talk about Gaza, they include it under occupied territories

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They do indeed but Israel does not. It's all opinions and opinions do not make it a truism. Besides Cameron would rather not validate the UK position in words

www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/uk-foreign-secretary-refuses-to-say-israel-occupies-gaza/3104369#

lettherebepeaceintheworld · 17/01/2024 09:48

EasterIssland · 17/01/2024 07:44

From a Washington Post article

Israel Ziv, former commander of the Israel Defense Forces

i don’t care what this person wants to say about Gaza. For sure he’s going to have a non bias opinion so I prefer believing independent organisations like UN

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I care as I happen to agree with him. The UN is not independent in my view as it has been very politicised and has its own self interests

Auvergne63 · 17/01/2024 09:35

Toggenburgsaregreat · 17/01/2024 09:04

MN HQ will always remove personal attacks if you ask them.
Simple.

Show quote history

Making personal attacks shouldn't be considered at all. Just because the post can be deleted does not make it ok to do so. Simple.

Dulra · 17/01/2024 09:06

Auvergne63 · 17/01/2024 08:47

How do you know no one cares? Are you able to look into people's mind?
Why are you calling me and others " the usual rent a mob useful idiots"?
Why are we called anti semitic if we dare criticising the Israeli government? This is a serious accusation.
When people start to make personal attacks on others in a debate, in my opinion, it shows that they have ran out of valid counter arguments.

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Absolutely agree

Who is this rent a mob you speak of? Why are they a mob? why are they anti Semitic? why do you think they don't care about ALL children that are caught up and killed in conflicts across the world? where is your evidence for this accusation? You can't just throw out these derogatory inflammatory accusations

Original poster
Toggenburgsaregreat · 17/01/2024 09:04

anotherlevel · 17/01/2024 09:02

I think you, I and everyone else knows there's a lot wrong with what you've just posted and personal attacks on posters is just one of them.

Show quote history

MN HQ will always remove personal attacks if you ask them.
Simple.

OP posts:
anotherlevel · 17/01/2024 09:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I think you, I and everyone else knows there's a lot wrong with what you've just posted and personal attacks on posters is just one of them.

Original poster
Toggenburgsaregreat · 17/01/2024 08:55

@MissyB1 "You can’t bomb a terrorist organisation out of existence, everyone knows that."

Quite, and to suggest Israel is doing that is rather simplistic and an insult to Israel's military commanders..

I get very tired of the allegations that Israel is going into Gaza on a 'killing spree' or going in 'mob-handed'.
Israel has a strategy, and just because we aren't party to it doesn't mean it's not there.
As with any war there needs to be a multi-faceted approach, which is what is happening.

I mentioned Iran in previous posts as they are covertly bankrolling Hamas. Cut off both their supply chains and you cut off their ability to wage war.

Iran is a country close to poverty due to historical US sanctions on oil exports (among other areas) and mismanagement,

https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-adviser-says-sanctions-will-bring-down-iran-oil-exports-bloomberg-news-2023-11-15/

More targeted sanctions listed here-

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-us-hit-hamas-leadership-with-targeted-sanctions

Iran has an unemployment rate of nearly 11%,

Their population was demonstrating in the streets all last year over the death in custody of Mahasa Amini, a 22 year old woman who was arrested and beaten by the Morality Police for not wearing a hijab. (Not reported on Western News outlets)
https://www.npr.org/2023/01/06/1147376644/iran-protests-crackdown-mahsa-amini

If another revolution takes place in Iran supporting Hamas may become the least of their concerns.

That's why we need to look at the bigger picture.

OP posts:
Auvergne63 · 17/01/2024 08:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

How do you know no one cares? Are you able to look into people's mind?
Why are you calling me and others " the usual rent a mob useful idiots"?
Why are we called anti semitic if we dare criticising the Israeli government? This is a serious accusation.
When people start to make personal attacks on others in a debate, in my opinion, it shows that they have ran out of valid counter arguments.

1dayatatime · 17/01/2024 08:10

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

EasterIssland · 17/01/2024 07:44

lettherebepeaceintheworld · 17/01/2024 00:27

From a Washington Post article

Israel Ziv, former commander of the Israel Defense Forces' Gaza Division, who headed the army’s Operations Directorate during the disengagement from Gaza.

Q: Does Israel still occupy Gaza?

A: No, of course Israel does not still occupy Gaza, at least no more than the Egyptians are occupying Gaza.

The issue here is that Israel does not have any involvement at all in the day-to-day running of Gaza. Unfortunately, until the ruling party there, Hamas, changes its policy of acting as both a government and a terror organization, Israel will insist on controlling everything that goes into or out of Gaza.

From a Washington Post article

Israel Ziv, former commander of the Israel Defense Forces

i don’t care what this person wants to say about Gaza. For sure he’s going to have a non bias opinion so I prefer believing independent organisations like UN

Parkingt111 · 17/01/2024 07:39

Just a general report that was uodated in Feb 2022 about business risk. The first sentence which is: The British Government defines the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPTs) as consisting of two separate land areas: the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/overseas-business-risk-palestinian-territories/overseas-business-risk-the-occupied-palestinian-territories

Overseas business risk: The Occupied Palestinian Territories

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/overseas-business-risk-palestinian-territories/overseas-business-risk-the-occupied-palestinian-territories

Parkingt111 · 17/01/2024 07:35

lettherebepeaceintheworld · 17/01/2024 00:23

The UN is wrong.

Show quote history

The UK considers Gaza as occupied. If you go on any of the Gov.Uk sites that talk about Gaza, they include it under occupied territories

MissyB1 · 17/01/2024 07:16

winterrabbit · 16/01/2024 23:00

Because unless Hamas is wiped out, there will be another 7th October and there is NO chance the Israelis will ever allow that to happen.

I'd have more sympathy with the protesters if they also condemned the 7th October attacks and cut back on the absolutely appalling anti-semitic hate crime spewed out from a large number of protestors. But they won't because that's basically what is fuelling this. Pure old anti-semitism.

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You can’t bomb a terrorist organisation out of existence, everyone knows that. And no that excuse is not justified for the slaughter of a population. Palestinians are not Hamas. Also Israel is simply creating more hatred and fuelling the fire for future terrorists.

lettherebepeaceintheworld · 17/01/2024 00:28

Plus

Q: So why do Palestinians, and many in the international community, continue saying Gaza is occupied?

A: Palestinians like to ride on that narrative because it is a very catchy narrative, and since part of this warfare is about the narrative and justification of the narrative, using that narrative — even though it is not what happens in the field — is still useful. And, unfortunately, many people in the world still like to buy this narrative.

Another narrative that is more correct is that Gaza is under blockade. This is partly true, but that is due to the fact that there is no other supervision arrangement, no satisfying international supervision that would allow Israel to open the gates for everything to flow into Gaza.

lettherebepeaceintheworld · 17/01/2024 00:27

From a Washington Post article

Israel Ziv, former commander of the Israel Defense Forces' Gaza Division, who headed the army’s Operations Directorate during the disengagement from Gaza.

Q: Does Israel still occupy Gaza?

A: No, of course Israel does not still occupy Gaza, at least no more than the Egyptians are occupying Gaza.

The issue here is that Israel does not have any involvement at all in the day-to-day running of Gaza. Unfortunately, until the ruling party there, Hamas, changes its policy of acting as both a government and a terror organization, Israel will insist on controlling everything that goes into or out of Gaza.

lettherebepeaceintheworld · 17/01/2024 00:23

MercanDede · 16/01/2024 23:22

The United Nations says Israel is the Occupier of the Occupied Palestinian Territories which are East Jerusalem, West Bank and Gaza
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129722

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights

Show quote history

The UN is wrong.

lettherebepeaceintheworld · 17/01/2024 00:22

MouseAnon89 · 16/01/2024 23:53

I'd have more sympathy with the protesters if they also condemned the 7th October attacks and cut back on the absolutely appalling anti-semitic hate crime spewed out from a large number of protestors. But they won't because that's basically what is fuelling this. Pure old anti-semitism.

I completely agree with this. I get why people are angry about the situation in Gaza, it’s awful, but the fact that the “pro Palestine” protestors are so vicious in their chants and so hateful with their placards makes me really think they don’t actually want to help Palestinians, they’re just rabidly anti Israel because they’re simply anti semitic. They never seem to address the many Palestinians killed by frequently failed rockets fired from Gaza that are intended to kill Israelis citizens. And they say nothing of Hamas’ strategy to use their own people as human shields. I think it’s pretty gross actually.

Antisemitism is a virus that mutates: in the Middle Ages Jews were hated for their religion. Then in post enlightenment Europe when hating people for their religion was no longer fashionable, Jews were hated for their race. In the 21st Century obviously racism is totally out, so now Jews are hated for their Nation State, Israel. We’ll just claim it’s because of their human rights record and just ignore all the other countries in world with far worse human rights records, meanwhile we won’t constantly challenge their right to exist. We’ll also conveniently ignore the Palestinians’ history of initiating wars, their violence, their faulty leadership and their constant refusal to take opportunities for accommodation. There are 56 Islamic nations, and 159 in which Christians form the majority. There is and only ever has been one Jewish state, tiny and vulnerable. That is why Anti-Zionism, denying Jews the right to their one and only collective home by misrepresenting Judaism, is the new antisemitism, every bit as virulent and dangerous as the old.

There needs to be a Palestinian State - alongside the Israeli State not instead of the Israeli State (can’t believe this needs to be said, but here we are) and a future of dignity and hope for Palestinian youth. But these - let’s face it, quite ignorant and evidently uneducated protestors - are helping to fuck this up. Because they misrepresents the conflict as a zero-sum game: either Israel wins and the Palestinians lose, or the Palestinians win and Israel loses.
But the conflict is not a zero-sum game. From war and violence, both sides lose. From peace and security, both sides win.

Show quote history

Great post.

MouseAnon89 · 16/01/2024 23:53

winterrabbit · 16/01/2024 23:00

Because unless Hamas is wiped out, there will be another 7th October and there is NO chance the Israelis will ever allow that to happen.

I'd have more sympathy with the protesters if they also condemned the 7th October attacks and cut back on the absolutely appalling anti-semitic hate crime spewed out from a large number of protestors. But they won't because that's basically what is fuelling this. Pure old anti-semitism.

Show quote history

I'd have more sympathy with the protesters if they also condemned the 7th October attacks and cut back on the absolutely appalling anti-semitic hate crime spewed out from a large number of protestors. But they won't because that's basically what is fuelling this. Pure old anti-semitism.

I completely agree with this. I get why people are angry about the situation in Gaza, it’s awful, but the fact that the “pro Palestine” protestors are so vicious in their chants and so hateful with their placards makes me really think they don’t actually want to help Palestinians, they’re just rabidly anti Israel because they’re simply anti semitic. They never seem to address the many Palestinians killed by frequently failed rockets fired from Gaza that are intended to kill Israelis citizens. And they say nothing of Hamas’ strategy to use their own people as human shields. I think it’s pretty gross actually.

Antisemitism is a virus that mutates: in the Middle Ages Jews were hated for their religion. Then in post enlightenment Europe when hating people for their religion was no longer fashionable, Jews were hated for their race. In the 21st Century obviously racism is totally out, so now Jews are hated for their Nation State, Israel. We’ll just claim it’s because of their human rights record and just ignore all the other countries in world with far worse human rights records, meanwhile we won’t constantly challenge their right to exist. We’ll also conveniently ignore the Palestinians’ history of initiating wars, their violence, their faulty leadership and their constant refusal to take opportunities for accommodation. There are 56 Islamic nations, and 159 in which Christians form the majority. There is and only ever has been one Jewish state, tiny and vulnerable. That is why Anti-Zionism, denying Jews the right to their one and only collective home by misrepresenting Judaism, is the new antisemitism, every bit as virulent and dangerous as the old.

There needs to be a Palestinian State - alongside the Israeli State not instead of the Israeli State (can’t believe this needs to be said, but here we are) and a future of dignity and hope for Palestinian youth. But these - let’s face it, quite ignorant and evidently uneducated protestors - are helping to fuck this up. Because they misrepresents the conflict as a zero-sum game: either Israel wins and the Palestinians lose, or the Palestinians win and Israel loses.
But the conflict is not a zero-sum game. From war and violence, both sides lose. From peace and security, both sides win.

Humdingerydoo · 16/01/2024 23:46

Thank you for proving the UN bias. They're really not the right people for the job, are they?

Gaza isn't occupied but they seem to have renamed the whole of Palestine "Occupied Palestinian Territories". Not quite as catchy a name. It's not all occupied, only parts of it are, so it's very misleading. Goes to show how much words matter though. Renaming it all to make it sound as though Gaza is also occupied seems to have worked though - it's got people claiming it's occupied almost two decades after Israel withdrew 🤷🏻‍♀️ The UN really should know better.

And I already answered your question about the land in my previous post. Stop pretending Israel was the aggressor 🤦🏻‍♀️

MercanDede · 16/01/2024 23:28

Humdingerydoo · 16/01/2024 23:21

No, Israel is not still occupying Gaza. I also didn't say Hamas is their government. I mean, I guess they are, but I feel like PA should take some responsibility for the people of Gaza.

Your UN links don't say what you want them to say. They don't say Gaza is occupied. They mention the occupied Palestinian territories, East Jerusalem and Gaza. Gaza is not a part of the OPT because, well, they're not occupied.

And just because the Arab nations weren't successful in their destruction of Israel in 1948 doesn't mean that wasn't their intention 🤦🏻‍♀️ They tried and failed. Do you know why Israel ended up with more land after the war? Because that land was where they were being attacked from.

Stop rewriting history. It won't help anyone. I want peace, I want illegal settlers out of the West Bank and I want a Palestinian state but making up facts won't help us get to that point. It will only stir up more hatred. We don't need a bad guy and a good guy, we need two half-decent guys who both understand that the other also has a right to be upset about the past but are both willing to look and move forward.

I’m not the one rewriting history.
My links do say that Israel occupies Gaza. Here is another one with screen shot. https://www.ochaopt.org/

Israel occupies Gaza.
How do you think Israel ended up with 78% of the land when the UN partition gave them 33%? They went into Palestinian lands and attacked. They invaded.

Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire
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