Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

I wonder if generational trauma means that the population of Israel are particularly and understandably more susceptible to this type of manipulation.

Perhaps, but you're reducing Israelis to 'sheeple'. So, just maybe, it's decades of living under the threat of a constant barrage of rockets by Hamas. And it doesn't take manipulation - or even generational trauma - for Israelis to be fully aware they are surrounded by hostile countries, many of them harbouring their own terrorist organisations who basically want Jews wiped out.

Every time the IDF drops a bomb on Gaza they spread the seeds of Hamas ideology like thistle seeds in the wind

As above, you must be able to see how that works both ways?

Agree with you about the need for a diplomatic solution, and sooner rather than later before even more Palestinians are killed. However, it will need to be robust, and one that protects the security of Israelis going forward. That's going to take more than the eradication (or near-eradication) of Hamas obviously and some compromise by Israel as well, and unless Netanyahu is removed by election or otherwise, I can't see how that will happen currently.

No it's what happens when you have right wing war mongering governments in charge.

It's what happens in the new world of conviction politics where people debate on emotions, whataboutery and their facts or their truths rather than rational structured arguments based on actual facts.

@Humdingerydoo
@Itoosurvive

"Why are you ignoring posts saying it is achievable for Hamas"

+++

For the simple reason that whether @Itoosurvive can see it or not she is clearly displaying either an unconscious bias or a disguised conscious bias or prejudice against the State of Israel and those people that support it's existence (in particular Jewish people).

I can easily create scenarios showing that it is achievable or unachievable for either side to cause the destruction of either the State of Israel or the Palestinian State.

I repeat that it is unacceptable and morally repugnant for either Netanyahu, Hamas or the useful idiots on protest marches in London to declare "From the river to the sea".

It is irrelevant whether either party has the ability to deliver that threat of eradication or not. Just as it would be to call for example the "eradication of all Sikhs" but then claim in my defence that it's OK to say it because I don't have the ability to deliver on that threat.

What a fucking mess this is all turning into. All so predictable, too.

Yes, their existence as a nation is under threat. I mean, that is what it means when someone calls for the state of Israel to be eradicated. There is no other way to interpret that. "From the river too the sea, Palestine will be free" means from the river to the sea, all the land will be Palestine. That means there would be no Israel. That is a constant threat.

Hamas are supported financially as well as militarily by other actors. You can't just keep saying that isn't true until you yourself believe it. You can't pretend facts aren't real just because it suits your preferred narrative.

I can't in good conscience "agree to disagree" whether or not Israel is under threat as that's an important basis for understanding why there is war in the first place. If you don't want to understand it, it's not peace you're after. It's delegitimising Israel's reason for the war and therefore their right to fight for their existence that you're after. And if that's the case, own it.

To think that fear isn’t being used for political gain is naive and deluded.

I wonder if generational trauma means that the population of Israel are particularly and understandably more susceptible to this type of manipulation.

Every time the IDF drops a bomb on Gaza they spread the seeds of Hamas ideology like thistle seeds in the wind. I think they need saving from themselves, and the US is doing them a disservice by enabling them.

@Humdingerydoo
"Stop ignoring the fact that Israel and Israelis are under constant threat."

They are under threat, from rockets and incursions. But their existence as a nation isn't.

This is pretty impressive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Israel_Defense_Forces
as is the training of those who use it.

Add to that the fact that a nation fighting for its existence invariably performs well. 1967, 1973.

We will just have to agree to differ on this one.

Why are you ignoring posts saying it is achievable for Hamas? Hamas have various levels of support from multiple countries and terror groups all over the region. It is achievable and it is therefore a real fear for Israelis. Please stop ignoring it and pretending it isn't.

Hamas were able to build hundreds of miles of tunnels apparently without the UN noticing, and they were able to plan and execute the attack on 7th October. They have been able to hide hostages for over 100 days. They previously successfully hid a hostage for five years. They are more capable than you are willing to admit. Please believe us when we say you are wrong and that Hamas are a real threat.

Stop ignoring the fact that Israel and Israelis are under constant threat.

@1dayatatime
"But what is relevant is that it is equally unacceptable for either side to declare "From the river to the sea"."

I totally agree with you, but for Hamas the phrase is popularity seeking, unachievable bluster whilst for the Israeli government it is popularity seeking and achievable.

@AdamRyan I would agree to that statement if there wasn't a preceding massacre of civilians. The fear is real and to downplay it is minimising. Most people in Israel will know people either directly affected by 7/10 or the rockets coming into Israel from Hezbollah. It's not a perceived fear or imaginary. Or generated for political gain. I agree it can be harnessed but most in Israel will agree the only way forward is to eradicate Hamas. Given the circumstances.
What about Yemen, China, Armenia? Or are they not the powerful classes you are talking about?

@AdamRyan

"And until both sides recognise that the aggression is an ineffective response to fear it won't stop."

+++

Naive words that sound nice and fluffy but what would you describe as an acceptable response to fear and actually be attacked? Ignoring being attacked ? An invitation to come round for tea and cakes?

The best way to respond is to ensure that Gaza is not in a position to attack Israel whilst at the same time making an economic success of the West Bank (including stopping the settlements) in order to give ordinary Palestinians an alternative path and hope for the future.

@Itoosurvive

"There is a world of difference between Hamas declaring “ From the river to the sea “ and Netanyahu doing the same."

+++

There is absolutely no difference between either side declaring "From the river" regardless of whether that implies the extinction of the State of Israel or the Palestinian State and regardless of whether it is Netanyahu , Hamas or the protesters on the streets of London.

Both are equally unacceptable and morally repugnant. To claim that "Ah it's different when stated by the pro Palestinian side" clearly demonstrates (whether you admit it or not) either an unconscious bias or a disguised conscious bias or prejudice against the State of Israel and those people that support it's existence (in particular Jewish people).

You faux argument that only Israel is capable of delivering on this threat where as Hamas / Palestinian cause is not is not only weak but also a transparent attempt to hide your prejudice .

I could equally create an argument (not that it is relevant) that "ah but it's different when Netanyahu says it" on the basis that well Israel's main backer the US would never allow it (Biden very recently calling for a two state solution) whereas Hamas main backer Iran would support it in the destruction of Israel (Iran very recently calling for the destruction of Israel). But no doubt your self hate against Western values would bizarrely mean that you would rather trust Iran than the US.

But what is relevant is that it is equally unacceptable for either side to declare "From the river to the sea".

I fear that the ongoing bombardment and destruction of Gaza by Israel, in retaliation for the acts of Hamas, followed by numerous countries escalating action, is putting us all at risk. With that risk obviously being currently much worse for the Middle East. When is it going to end? How many more people need to die? There will need to be a diplomatic solution at some point.

Not meaning to sound blunt here, but I think an appeal to fear is a way that powerful classes can justify extreme and unacceptable actions to their "enemies". We see it all the time and I hate it because it results in huge human suffering.

It's what Hitler did to the Jews. Its what Putin is doing in Donetsk. Its what the George W Bush did to Afghanistan and Iraq. And in my opinion its what Netanyahu is doing to Gaza. These people use fear and aggression to deal with their own political agendas at home.

The fear is reasonable but the play on it and the aggressive "destroy the enemy" respinse isn't. And until both sides recognise that the aggression is an ineffective response to fear it won't stop.

Thank you, I wasn't quite sure how to reply to that post. I was trying to work out what about my comments would make anyone think I am dismissing Palestinian worries about their futures, or about their current situation.

I do understand people's fears, but I don't see the same understanding back from the pro-Israeli action posters. Despite the fact the death toll in Gaza continues to climb, it's been flattened effectively, the refugee camps are being bombed, there is no healthcare. It just gets worse and worse and the bit I don't get is how people think this is going to protect Israel in the long term. Its just creating the next generation who will hate Israel for what happened to their family/friends/childhoods.

@AdamRyan whataboutery and dismissive of what @Humdingerydoo is trying to tell you.
Is it impossible to acknowledge what they are saying? And try to understand?

@Toggenburgsaregreat
Put bluntly, I think that Israel still has every right to militarily occupy the West Bank but loading it with “settlers” was a tragic error on the part of Israel.

if the occupation is deemed as illegal, then no they don't. And agree about the settlers.

What do you think of the fears (I have them) that the currently Israeli government won't stop bombing until only 10% of Palestinians remain in Gaza and the Israelis can "make the desert bloom"? Israel have the capability to do that today, and some of the Israeli government have stated that's what they want.

I have raised the potential for the deaths of millions as "collateral damage" to "eradicating hamas" before and got a metaphorical shoulder shrug and a "not Israels problem". That's equally dismissive, isn't it?

And I don't have Palestinian friends and family. Goodness knows what it's like for people who do.

I know that Netanyahu has always denied this but I saw it mentioned again yesterday. From what I remember he was accused of the same by some within Israel too that he propped up Hamas in a bid to weaken the PA and to use as a excuse and hinder any path towards a two state solution. This was said yesterday by the EU chief:
"Yes, Hamas was financed by the government of Israel in an attempt to weaken the Palestinian Authority led by Fatah,"

I think it's quite naive to think Hamas wouldn't be able to one day achieve their goals of eradicating Israel and the people within it. Hamas have a lot of support in the region who may very well one day decide to take the risk and help them out. It is a real possibility so dismissing it means you're minimising the fears of millions of people and means you're not understanding what is currently happening in Israel. Without understanding there will only be more hatred and an even longer wait for peace. You can't just dismiss the fears of millions of people and pretend they're not real.

I personally struggle with the fact that the demonstrations and marches started October 8. I'm not going to blame you for that or demand you explain why they did that as you sound like someone who marches with good intentions, but lots of people don't which so often gets ignored. It feels a bit like gaslighting to be constantly told we're imagining that lots of marchers are more anti-Israel than pro-Palestinian.

Palestine has been offered a two state solution many times and refused

This is quite a balanced article outlining the history of the peace talks.

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/22/23971375/israel-palestine-peace-talks-deal-timeline

Our government; the British government