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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Towards a sustainable peace

392 replies

mids2019 · 01/01/2024 16:20

I think for a peace to be obtained constructive dialogue has to be started but in order for this to happen in my opinion Palestine has to acknowledge and their leaders publically denounce the heinous acts of October 7th and make clear such an event will never be repeated.

There have been to many senior Palestinian politicians wishing their grievances to be heard without mentioning October 7th and this will only have the effect of enraging Israel.

We need Palestinian leadership that is willing to sit down with Israeli leaders and from the outset denounce violence specifically making it absolutely clear there will be no 'revenge' for the current Israeli incursion.

We also need to be pragmatic and understand Israel will not be giving Gaza any financial aid so it will be up to the richer gulf states primarily to discuss funding some sort of rebuilding within Gaza. Also eventually there needs to be opportunities for Palestinians to emigrate in order to gain jobs and allow future generations to thrive. I think ultimately you would have to view Gaza as a city state with a multi million rebuilding package coming from those supportive nations in the middle east.

We also need to ensure education in Gaza is such that anti semitiism isn't promoted from a young age so we have a chance for a generation of Palestinians growing up knowing the only way forward is peace.

I think there is a peace to be had if both sides want it and are willing to negotiate positivist with a commitment to prevent terrorism and ensure there is security for both parties.

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Original poster
mids2019 · 06/01/2024 18:08

@stormy4319trevor

I wonder how that would work under international law and could it ever be enforced. I suppose you could say how much should Gaza pay in terms of recompense for October 7th? It's tricky.

In reality it will be other countries rebuilding Gaza so the West need to decide how big their pockets are and how they can benefit from a peace dividend.

I don't think rebuilding Gaza will be that cheap. 50 billion maybe?

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stormy4319trevor · 06/01/2024 18:06

@Xenia I think Israel/Gaza is too small for that. The only solution is making peace a better deal than war. So a solution that is too good for both parties to jeopardise. I think the international community should be able to come up with that.

Xenia · 06/01/2024 17:51

I agree with the first post on the thread.
It may be we need a big barrier, no man's land area between Israel and Gaza to ensure Hamas can never again what they did.

stormy4319trevor · 06/01/2024 17:51

Israel should pay reparations towards rebuilding the hospitals, roads, homes etc. that they have destroyed. Other countries may contribute, but they should not foot the whole bill, since many did not agree with the maximum damage strategy anyway. Legal measures should be taken if necessary. I don't think any other countries should govern Gaza. There should be incentives for peace, such as allowing them access to their own oil and gas reserves, water in the WB and measures to create a Palestinian state

theoldweirdalbion · 06/01/2024 17:20

given the current geographical boundaries of the Palestinian territories are there enough resources and infrastructure to create a functioning state where the lives of the Palestinians are such that there is no desperation?
I think if Palestine was established as an independent self-governing state that should be enough for most people though some would still hold more extreme views.
I’m sure most people just want to get with their lives though so in a more stable situation those extreme voices would not be listened to as much. I don’t think they would settle for the current boundaries though. I mean they might but they probably want the occupied territories back.

theoldweirdalbion · 06/01/2024 17:15

Without the money for reconstruction Gaza may not the most hospitable place to live and we would have along term refugee problem and we would have to decide how best to advocate this??
Gaza gets huge amounts of aid anyway (which may or may not have been put to good use by Hamas). I don’t think raising the money would be a problem. The hope is they won’t be bombed again in 5 or 10 years time I guess.

Original poster
mids2019 · 06/01/2024 16:31

Who pays for any rwconstruction?

The Israelis would like the EU, US and the Arab world to foot the bill which may be costly and the West is going to be miffed given the amount already given for the building of hospitals etc. Will anyone want to build infrastructure which may be again bombed in 5 or 10 years time.

It's going to be a hard sell to the international community to supply massive aid (I assume loans to Gaza may be impractical).

Without the money for reconstruction Gaza may not the most hospitable place to live and we would have along term refugee problem and we would have to decide how best to advocate this??

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Original poster
mids2019 · 06/01/2024 16:12

@theoldweirdalbion

I think he question is what would be enough for the Palestinians to not resort to violence (and similarly for the Israelis).

given the current geographical boundaries of the Palestinian territories are there enough resources and infrastructure to create a functioning state where the lives of the Palestinians are such that there is no desperation?

One oncern is that Gaza is small area of land for 2.1 million people to be completely self sufficient so trade links will be important.

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Parkingt111 · 06/01/2024 14:12

@Scirocco I agree
And I hope Blinken atleast makes an attempt to point that out when he goes to Israel

Scirocco · 06/01/2024 13:36

Looking at the proposals from Israeli politicians for what they consider to be reasonable measures for 'The Day After' is heartbreaking.

'The Day After', like it's been a particularly rowdy party and people need to just get the rubbish tidied away.

This is the destruction of a society, which was brutally oppressed before all this started. Their 'Day After' model is just more oppression.

theoldweirdalbion · 06/01/2024 13:16

The Gazans would govern Gaza at a civilian level but Israel would need to be assured Hamas or an equivalent couldn't arise again so there would be a need for suppression of residual militant forces hence the U.N.

I think the grim reality is that there will be Palestinians that will want to support a military reponse of some kind from Gaza as retribution for the Israeli military campaign. I don't think you can easily dissuade Gaza from this course of action so security for both parties is paramount

Thinking in the long term suppression of militant forces will only get you so far. Some form of diplomatic intervention (from a 3rd party) would also be needed. Peace talks etc.

Ultimately the people in Gaza are not going to turn away from terrorism if they are in a situation where they feel that is their only option.

Obviously security is paramount but this has become a bit of a vicious circle. The more the Palestinians are suppressed the more radicalised they become and the more radicalised they become the more they need to be suppressed.

Humdingerydoo · 06/01/2024 13:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

What are those classic traits then that I'm supposedly displaying?

Humdingerydoo · 06/01/2024 13:03

Babyboomtastic · 06/01/2024 11:23

I've changed it the other way for you, as it applies equally doesn't it?

As this is a thread about sustainable peace, I implore you to try and think of it from Palestine's Israel's point of view for just one second. There will be no sustainable peace if Palestine Israel doesn't feel safe. That's just a fact.

Do you think they'll feel safe with their 'security' managed by the same people that pulvarised their society, killed their children, and arguably committed genocide against them.

Suggesting that Gaza should put up with the IDF in charge of security is as perverse an idea as Israels security being managed by Hamas.

Edited
Show quote history

Yes, of course it applies equally. But like everyone likes to remind us, Israel has the bigger army and are the occupying force. They're not going to relinquish that unless they feel it's safe enough to do so. I'm trying to find realistic solutions as the ideal ones won't work.

Original poster
mids2019 · 06/01/2024 12:11

@Parkingt111 .

The question is an interim security arrangements in Gaza and someone suggested the U.N. so wouldn't that potentially involve the U.K?

The Gazans would govern Gaza at a civilian level but Israel would need to be assured Hamas or an equivalent couldn't arise again so there would be a need for suppression of residual militant forces hence the U.N.

I think the grim reality is that there will be Palestinians that will want to support a military reponse of some kind from Gaza as retribution for the Israeli military campaign. I don't think you can easily dissuade Gaza from this course of action so security for both parties is paramount.

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Parkingt111 · 06/01/2024 11:59

@mids2019 why would the UK want to send their troops to be used as a security force in Gaza? I can't see that happening.
The UK's position is that post war Gazans should govern Gaza and any action taken should be towards a two state solution

Original poster
mids2019 · 06/01/2024 11:41

@Humdingerydoo

Thinking about it if there were US and UK troops within the U.N. peace keeping contingent then Israel may be more trustful of the security governance. However I see the US and UK being reluctant to put troops into juxtaposition given the recent isolationist stance of the US after Afghansitan. It would be interesting to see how it would play politically in the UK if British troops were part of that contingent.

Maybe you need some sort of arrangement between Arab nations and Western nations to put a suitably constituted force in?

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Original poster
mids2019 · 06/01/2024 11:30

@Humdingerydoo
Israel's security can't be neglected and therefore given October 7th happened and in reality there will be those that want a repeat of is imperative Israel maintains border defences with the strip. I think long term a real challenge will be about free travel between Gaza and the West Bank as that isn't going to happen any time soon.

Israel I guess would want guarantees that the U.N. are prepared to neutralise any Hamas operatives within Gaza as part of their remit and I actually think the U.N. may be reluctant to take on that role.

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MakingAComment · 06/01/2024 11:30

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Original poster
mids2019 · 06/01/2024 11:25

Will the U.N. want the job? Peace keeping in reality will mean suppression of any residual military activity by Hamas not defending against the IDF. U.N. peace keepers would need to potentially neutralise Hamas fighters setting up rocket launchers and if there are civilians in the surround that would be a dimemma. I don't know if the U.N. would want to be seen doing the IDFs job given that UN workers have died in the conflict and the U.N. won't want to be facilitating any position which meant further hardship for the Palestinians.

Maybe peace keeping has to be done by Arab nations that we 'relatively' cordial with Israel (?) but Israel would want some guarantee they were up to the job of maintining security.

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Babyboomtastic · 06/01/2024 11:23

Humdingerydoo · 06/01/2024 08:35

As this is a thread about sustainable peace, I implore you to try and think of it from Israel's point of view for just one second. There will be no sustainable peace if Israel doesn't feel safe. That's just a fact. So what do you suggest? Bearing in mind UN being solely in charge of security wouldn't be an appropriate option either because of their bias.

I am not trying to be goady or antagonistic in any way. I genuinely just don't understand how there will be sustainable peace if Israel feels unsafe. That doesn't meant I put Israel's wants, needs or well-being ahead of that of the Palestinians, I am just being realistic. Maybe some kind of army that isn't made up of Israelis but still sort of controlled by Israel if that makes sense?

Show quote history

I've changed it the other way for you, as it applies equally doesn't it?

As this is a thread about sustainable peace, I implore you to try and think of it from Palestine's Israel's point of view for just one second. There will be no sustainable peace if Palestine Israel doesn't feel safe. That's just a fact.

Do you think they'll feel safe with their 'security' managed by the same people that pulvarised their society, killed their children, and arguably committed genocide against them.

Suggesting that Gaza should put up with the IDF in charge of security is as perverse an idea as Israels security being managed by Hamas.

Humdingerydoo · 06/01/2024 11:16

Scirocco · 06/01/2024 10:56

@Humdingerydoo how do you know what people would vote for, are you an expert on the political preferences of Palestinians?

I'm basing that on opinion polls and what seemingly every expert says. If you have information that would indicate that they are all wrong then I am more than happy to take that into account. I feel like you're going to pounce on anything I say, everyone is very aggressive on this board today.

@theoldweirdalbion I don't think Israel being in charge is ok. I'm asking what the alternative is as I can't personally see a better one if sustainable peace is truly what people are after.

Edited to add - I'll include myself in posters being aggressive on here today 🙈 my back is clearly up!

Original poster
mids2019 · 06/01/2024 11:06

@Humdingerydoo

the massive challenge is that it would be disingenuous to think Palestin Ian wouldn't be hell bent on revenge hence peace is ambitious currently but should obviously be the goal.

The Paelstinains may want a response given civilian casualties in Gaza and there needs to be a means to prevent this happening so a lot of thought needs to be put into his power is transitioned to Palestinians so Israel isn't again threatened. To my mind that will need some sort of peace imposition and a measured approach to Palestinian self determination.

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Original poster
mids2019 · 06/01/2024 11:01

If the UN are to move in from which countries should the troops be drawn?

Is there a possibility of they are drawn from nations like the US they themselves could be a target for terrorist action?

Will the U.N. not want to look like they are facilitating Israeli occupation by proxy i.e. Dealing with residual Hamas operatives within Gaza?

To have respect within Gaza should the peace keeping forces come for.Arab nations solely?

Will Israel trust the U.N. given its current fraught relationship?

I suppose the idea is that instead of the IDF providing security the U.N. would do so but this will only be feasible in a non active war zone and so the U.N. may need terms of engagement against Hamas if they still see themselves as an authority in Gaza.

There needs to be a clearer steer from Israel to how close they are to achieving their military objectives.

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Scirocco · 06/01/2024 10:56

@Humdingerydoo how do you know what people would vote for, are you an expert on the political preferences of Palestinians?

theoldweirdalbion · 06/01/2024 10:22

I know Israel will be biased towards Israel 🙄 Stop talking to people as though they're idiots, it's quite unpleasant

Except you’re the one being rude.

If you know Israel is biased towards Israel why do you think it’s ok for Israel to be in charge.