Towards a sustainable peace

Any suggestion of a demilitarised Israel is a flight of fantasy and a non-starter. There is no way this will happen when other terrorist groups controlled as proxies by a hostile rogue State as Iran exists.

Western States and Arab States such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia will not seriously put forward such proposals.

It's a ridiculous suggestion that isn't worth further discussion.

History indicates Israel has required military power in order to defend itself from the invasion by five Arab States to more recent times.

No, it is any possible Palestinian State that will be permanently demilitarised. On a smaller scale at home here, it was PIRA who were demilitarised and not the British Army.

As I said, not worth further serious discussion. 🤦‍♂️

I have no issue with a demilitarised Palestinian state, living alongside a demilitarised Israeli one, with the security for both being the responsibility for international peacekeepers. Then both sides allowed to gradually take security responsibility back over a period of decades.

This is a good idea and would definitely reduce the violence and death toll.

You don’t know me at all.

In the same mind, Israeli schools should also sort their education out as well. We also (the west) and Israel do not have the right to control over any future elections of Palestine.

But to your earlier post, there will be no peace whilst The IDF is still in Gaza, whilst Israel has control of their water, power and everything else.
People have to realise that because Israel won’t let the Palestinians have a legitimate armed forces, or an airport, or no coastal access there will always be Hamas, or it’s equivalent, what choice have they got to defend themselves ? Israel will not defeat Hamas, it’s an ideology born from oppression and lack of control over their own future.

What would do a long way for Palestinians I think, is some parity between how Israel and Palestine is treated.

I have no issue with a demilitarised Palestinian state, living alongside a demilitarised Israeli one, with the security for both being the responsibility for international peacekeepers. Then both sides allowed to gradually take security responsibility back over a period of decades.

Only when both sides are prevented from committing attrocities are people likely to start talking constructively about the future. Neither side can flourish when they all live in fear of eachother and the future.

It would never happen because Israel is too powerful for this, but a sustainable, fair peace isnt possible when one side is largely unarmed and the other has nukes ..

A somewhat more nuanced account ⬆️
Just to clarify I meant more nuanced that the first article I posted not the article gloriagloria
posted.

As far as possible the ideology that allowed the formation and power of Hamas has to be challenged.
How would you suggest this is done?

A somewhat more nuanced account ⬆️

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/22/23971375/israel-palestine-peace-talks-deal-timeline

But it was Netanyahu, who, on his own admission blocked to Oslo accords, not the Palestinians- a direct quote:
""They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]... I said I would, but [that] I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue." Netanyahu then explained how he conditioned his signing of the 1997 Hebron agreement on American consent that there be no withdrawals from "specified military locations", and insisted he be allowed to specify which areas constituted a "military location"—such as the whole of the Jordan Valley. "Why is that important? Because from that moment on I stopped the Oslo Accords"
It's now clear: the Oslo peace accords were wrecked by Netanyahu's bad faith | Avi Shlaim | The Guardian

Israel must be made to pay for rebuilding Gaza, they were the ones who flattened it to ground. Why would anyone else pay ?

And this is to say nothing of how Palestinian leaders over decades have failed Palestinians! 🤦‍♂️

Reality is rejecting every possible peace settlement ever tabled eventually leads you and your people to a total dead end.

And you'll end up with less than before too.

Well there’s 2 sides to every story. An alternative POV is outlined here.

https://theintercept.com/2023/11/28/israel-palestine-history-peace/

Like Germany and Japan before them, any independent Palestinian State will NOT be fully sovereign. Egypt has indicated a demilitarised Palestinian State is on the cards.
Demilitarisation does make sense

A coalition of the willing will impose a settlement based on military, political and business control
Which the more extreme fractions of Palestinian society will try and resist with, you guessed it, more terrorism.

Palestinians won't be able to fight against a Western, Israeli and Arab coalition
Not in the sense that they can declare war and send in the army but then they can’t do that now.
It’s worth remembering Iran and Hezbollah will probably back any terrorist factions. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey etc probably want to remain neutral/avoid any wider conflict which isn’t quite the same as backing Israel the way America does.

The very fact you laughably said "Posters like the OP and yourself are saying “well Israel’s in charge and Gaza has to suck it up”" just demonstrates you've failed to read AND comprehend my actual words.
That is what you’re saying though

And this is to say nothing of how Palestinian leaders over decades have failed Palestinians! 🤦‍♂️

Reality is rejecting every possible peace settlement ever tabled eventually leads you and your people to a total dead end.

And you'll end up with less than before too.

My intention isn't to fully compare the two in every aspect. The point centred around restrictions on sovereignty being imposed by external sovereign powers.

Nothing else.

Like Germany and Japan before them, any independent Palestinian State will NOT be fully sovereign. Egypt has indicated a demilitarised Palestinian State is on the cards.

You might scoff and make retorts such as "Let might make right", but reality is very different. Western, Israeli and most Arab States are not friendly towards Palestinian terrorist groups. It IS in their interests to demilitarise them for the greater good of the region.

Political, military and economic might is important. Palestinians have none of these whereas the West, Israel and Arab States such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt do.

Rather than might making things right, it's more accurate to state that might makes things possible and to happen.

As I've said many times before from my own experience, peaceful settlements do not arise until a terrorist group is defeated or very close to it.

A coalition of the willing will impose a settlement based on military, political and business control. We've seen it before involving whole countries and we'll see it with the tiny strips of Palestinian controlled areas.

Palestinians won't be able to fight against a Western, Israeli and Arab coalition. They have no meaningful power as Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman pointed out to Palestinian leaders.

The very fact you laughably said "Posters like the OP and yourself are saying “well Israel’s in charge and Gaza has to suck it up”" just demonstrates you've failed to read AND comprehend my actual words. Especially since I've repeatedly stressed the importance of a Western, Israeli and Arab coalition of the willing.

Let me point out also that the Arab coalition of the past with its Three Noes Of Khartoum has failed over time. With that in mind, Arab States are going to have to form a coalition with Israel. Iran won't be in it, but major Arab powers like Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Qatar would likely be.

I understand terrorism very well having experienced it in real life too. Unfortunately, most commenting here haven't and don't really understand it. Defeat of Hamas is key here. That can be enough to discourage future terrorism and ensure the focus will be on politics.

The failure of Hamas must be made plain for all to see. Not a propaganda of the peace process type of thing.

Once again you're being highly selective in your responses, so cheerio to you. 🤷‍♂️

@mids2019 Gaza has gas reserves which they currently can't profit from. They could also are limited on fishing. They had an excellent university but were restricted in forming academic exchanges and partnerships which might have helped. I am sorry, but it's stopped raining for 5 . and I must walk the dog. I'll get back to you later, hope that's OK!

Yes, it's like when Israel says "self defence".

Knowing @Thereissomelight I don't think that's what they were talking about.

@mids2019 Yes, economic assistance and sovereignty is the ideal. However, Japan and Germany are recognised nations, with borders, able to profit from their own natural resources, not under blockade, not subject to regular bombing, have freedom of movement, freedom of engagement with the wider world, are not split into two separate occupied territories. If Gaza can be transformed to this state of affairs then I suspect peace will prevail.

"resist..."?!????!
Obviously Hamas’s methods of retaliation are not acceptable as they involve the killing of innocent people but there does seem to be a cycle of violence/hate that needs to be broken somehow.

I think Palestinians have engaged in all kinds of resistance - from peaceful marches, where they have been wounded and killed - to appeals to international justice, to charities, government organisations and the media, from BDS to diplomacy. They are, I think, entitled to this. They have drawn attention to their plight with all these measures. I think everyone agrees that Hamas is a different matter and we can't accept their tactics.