Page 16 | Towards a sustainable peace

stormy4319trevor · 01/01/2024 19:00

OP, why would Israel not pay anything to repair the damage in Gaza? They insisted on damage not precision and ignored calls for restraint. Why on earth should they wreck the place then expect other countries to pay?

EmberLight · 01/01/2024 18:58

PurpleChrayne · 01/01/2024 18:53

Palestine has summarily rejected every peace deal offered.

It isn't Israel's problem anymore. We need to secure the borders and let other Arab nations deal with it.

Your first point is incorrect and on your second point, ending the blockade and illegal settlements would help the security situation. The Palestinians just want what's rightfully theirs.

PurpleChrayne · 01/01/2024 18:53

Palestine has summarily rejected every peace deal offered.

It isn't Israel's problem anymore. We need to secure the borders and let other Arab nations deal with it.

Scirocco · 01/01/2024 18:53

@mids2019 restoring illegally occupied amd seized land is not enlarging borders. It's taking steps to restore some of what was taken illegally.

EmberLight · 01/01/2024 18:52

mids2019 · 01/01/2024 18:01

I think Israel are in a strong negotiating position and firstly we need Hamas to lay down their arms as surely confusing violence from their perspective is futile. I think Israelcouod offer to end the conflict at some point with security measures that are better than those that so tragically failed on October 7th. I suppose a security fence with some kind of mine field may work as it would also any potential terrorists down.

I think then Israel could clearly out line the limits of Gaza and give more fishing rights to improve good supply? Once a non terrorist organisation is in charge of Gaza talks could be started into allowing Paelstinians to work in Israel but in the current climate this may be unacheivable. Usually in wars the victor sets out the conditions for peace so I think the boundaries of Palestinian territory won't change so it will be up to Gazans to make the peace work with what they have....The important point is that violence has to be repudiated on both sides.

I really do think both Palestinians and Isaelis should educate their children to appreciate peace and maybe in future years there may be better relationships.

Thanks for that. You don't think the occupation/land stealing should end? I think that's a central part of starting any kind of long term deal.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 01/01/2024 18:52

The main issue with your outline, OP, is that it essentially boils down to "Palestinians ought to just suck it up".

E.g., "Israel could [...] give more fishing rights [and] talks could be started into allowing Paelstinians to work in Israel".

What you are proposing is, in essence, indefinite occupation and inequality - and, really, what incentive would Palestinians have to agree to this?

Any actual sustainable peace will, by necessity, have to include justice for them. People, as a general rule, do not tend to take disenfranchisement, inequality, and oppression lying down; Palestinians are hardly alone in this one! And, yes, that will mean Israel having to make concessions - real ones, not "allowing people to work on their construction sites".

I am fully aware that "indefinite occupation" and - usually not explicitly stated - the hope that Palestinians will eventually just go away, more or less voluntarily so, is the ultimate Bibi-ist dream. But that has not worked so far and it never will.

Dazedandcovidconfused · 01/01/2024 18:48

An enlarged territory seems a funny way to word giving Palestinians their own land back which was taken from them.

Original poster

mids2019 · 01/01/2024 18:44

In order to avoid conflict I agree wrongs from both sides need to be acknowledged and that may be helpful but the idea of enlarged territory for Palestinians does seem unfeasible and peace negotiations cannot start on such a basis and Israel will simply not enter into such negotiations

The fear is that Palestinians will continually call for more territory to be conceded and reserve the right to some form of armed conflict

OP posts:

Original poster

mids2019 · 01/01/2024 18:39

I think though the territorial borders are set and although a peace and reconciliation forum would be a step forward the state borders of Israel won't change

I don't think a peace can be reached based on Israel conceding territory. In terms of previous tension between the two camps should the UK pay reparations due to its assistance in the formation of Israel...I don't think that is feasible or correct

OP posts:

BelleHathor · 01/01/2024 18:22

Oh and as @EasterIssland said there will be no peace until the trauma inflicted on Palestine is recognised. From the Nakba to date. Perhaps a peace and reconciliation commission like in South Africa after Apartheid.

BelleHathor · 01/01/2024 18:19

Israel is in a weak negotiating position. Their economy is on the brink of catastrophe due to the costs and effects of waging a war.

With the ground offensive they are losing a significant number of IDF soldiers to injury and death. The famous Golani brigade has been withdrawn from Gaza due to a 25%+ casualty rate. There are numerous videos showing how inept the IDF is close combat operations.

They begged France to intervene and ask Hezbollah to move 30km from their northern border and Hezbollah is just waiting for the right time to attack, if Israel keeps bombing it.

The US is withdrawing it Carrier Fleet from the Red Sea right now.

The American economy is about to 33 trillion in debt. Ordinary voters Republicans and increasingly Democrats will not want to fund/prop up Israel as they experience a cost of living crisis.

It's 2024 and an election year in the USA and UK, if the choice is between power and supporting Israel and losing power, what will the parties choose (increasingly relevant with the ICJ Genocide Court case).?

EasterIssland · 01/01/2024 18:18

Palestine Palestine Palestine.

not a single word in your op about Israel having to recognise the damage them and the settlers are doing. And that’s the proble. For a solution to be found both have to recognise all the harm that has been done

Scirocco · 01/01/2024 18:16

How is a minefield going to support peace? If Israeli forces want to mine their own side of a border, that's their prerogative, but I suspect they would impose mines on the Palestinian land, having already established an area of Palestinian land where Palestinians aren't able to freely go for fear of sniper attacks.

Original poster

mids2019 · 01/01/2024 18:01

I think Israel are in a strong negotiating position and firstly we need Hamas to lay down their arms as surely confusing violence from their perspective is futile. I think Israelcouod offer to end the conflict at some point with security measures that are better than those that so tragically failed on October 7th. I suppose a security fence with some kind of mine field may work as it would also any potential terrorists down.

I think then Israel could clearly out line the limits of Gaza and give more fishing rights to improve good supply? Once a non terrorist organisation is in charge of Gaza talks could be started into allowing Paelstinians to work in Israel but in the current climate this may be unacheivable. Usually in wars the victor sets out the conditions for peace so I think the boundaries of Palestinian territory won't change so it will be up to Gazans to make the peace work with what they have....The important point is that violence has to be repudiated on both sides.

I really do think both Palestinians and Isaelis should educate their children to appreciate peace and maybe in future years there may be better relationships.

OP posts:

Scirocco · 01/01/2024 17:40

I think there should be an investigation and potentially international justice processes into the allegations of war crimes and the actions of the Israeli government and military as part of any process. People alleged to have been involved in the atrocities of October 7th should face legal proceedings and the consequences of their actions in accordance with the legal system of the country in which they are alleged to have offended (I know what I would do to people convicted of those horrific offences, but fortunately for them I'm not part of that justice system). I would also like that to be independent of the US, who have already demonstrated that they cannot or will not be objective when considering Israel.

I'd like to see an actual commitment to a genuine 2-state process, including dismantling illegal settlements, providing reparations to people displaced and bereaved, restoring land and establishing clear borders, considering what to do about annexed land, etc. I'd like to see the removal from power on both sides of the military and civilian leaders promoting hate.

We need dialogue and an end to this cycle of hate, and for both parties to be willing to make hard choices to reach a situation in which both Israel and Palestine can respect each other's right to exist.

EmberLight · 01/01/2024 17:21

mids2019 · 01/01/2024 16:20

I think for a peace to be obtained constructive dialogue has to be started but in order for this to happen in my opinion Palestine has to acknowledge and their leaders publically denounce the heinous acts of October 7th and make clear such an event will never be repeated.

There have been to many senior Palestinian politicians wishing their grievances to be heard without mentioning October 7th and this will only have the effect of enraging Israel.

We need Palestinian leadership that is willing to sit down with Israeli leaders and from the outset denounce violence specifically making it absolutely clear there will be no 'revenge' for the current Israeli incursion.

We also need to be pragmatic and understand Israel will not be giving Gaza any financial aid so it will be up to the richer gulf states primarily to discuss funding some sort of rebuilding within Gaza. Also eventually there needs to be opportunities for Palestinians to emigrate in order to gain jobs and allow future generations to thrive. I think ultimately you would have to view Gaza as a city state with a multi million rebuilding package coming from those supportive nations in the middle east.

We also need to ensure education in Gaza is such that anti semitiism isn't promoted from a young age so we have a chance for a generation of Palestinians growing up knowing the only way forward is peace.

I think there is a peace to be had if both sides want it and are willing to negotiate positivist with a commitment to prevent terrorism and ensure there is security for both parties.

Have you any suggestions for what Israel might do to bring about a lasting peace? I've seen several posts like yours and it seems disingenuous to list out what the Palestinians should do without any mention of what Israel should do too.

Surely you agree that both sides will need to make concessions/take action for a genuine peace to come about?

Dibilnik · 01/01/2024 17:13

I agree with you OP, unfortunately none of the key players seem to possess the required qualities to make any of this happen. It is all very depressing and frightening.

I just finished reading Chuck Palahniuk's Consider This and he ends with this, which I am currently clinging to as a sort of clutching-at-straws sanity preserver:

What if all our anger and fear is unwarranted? What if world events are unfolding in perfect order to deliver us to a distant joy we can't conceive of at this time?
Please consider that the next ending will be the happy one.

I'm also sharing Ramin Nazer's poster
https://raminnazer.com/collections/prints

Let's hope that things just had to get to this horrible impasse before they can start to get better. 💗