Towards a sustainable peace

I'm not sure that is Hamas thats primarily responsible for normal life being so hard for Gazans.

The occupation of Gaza began before Hamas was voted in. The oppression of the palestinian people far, far longer than this. Both before Hamas even existed. The oppression of the people isn't because of Hamas, but Hamas was born out of anger of the injustice of the occupation.

It wasn't Hamas that banned chocolate, crayons, specialist baby milks etc. It was Israel. It wasn't Hamas who created a blockade to stop most people leaving. It was Israel. Even where people coughs leave via Rafah, it was at Israel's whim whether they'd ever be able to return home. Also, why should they leave their home? Suggesting that they should have feels a lot like victim blaming to me.

@Dibilnik I need to go just now but I'll come back later this evening and try to answer.

@Scirocco thank you for this. I don't watch much news on TV or listen to the radio and I tend to avoid online newsfeeds about this whole situation as it's just too upsetting.

I suppose my question is not about medics stuck in the current conflict, but about ordinary civilians choosing (???) to live under Hamas for almost two decades. I get that in the UK we can have a government we didn't choose, whose views we disagree with. What I don't understand is how ordinary people could live under the violent and delusional Hamas regime without actively seeking to leave the country. Is it that this was just not possible for them...?

Again, please don't take this as goady, I am just trying to understand the factors in play for individuals and their lives.

This !

Fucking hell, you want to put mines down, yeah that will really bring lasting peace. Sounds like you still want Israel to have all the control, outline the limits, give more fishing rights ( in Gaza’s own waters) allow Palestinians to work in Israel ( why would they want to unless they are desperate)
Oh and I don’t think Israel are in a strong negotiating position at all, hopefully the Hague will sort that out. Israel are in free fall and now going after Lebanon as well.

@Dibilnik

MSF and PRCS don't leave unless there's no alternative. The people I know would have stayed with their patients to the end. It's what I would have done.

Doctors going in to war zones, occupied territories and the like know there are risks. We go, we take those risks and stay as long as we can because otherwise innocent people die. We know that we can't save everyone, but we can save some. And once October 7th happened, a lot of people knew that, while they'd gone in to Gaza recognising risks, they were now likely to not leave.

Getting out at Rafah was chaos for the few people who got themselves or their families onto the required lists. People were told to go to the crossing, and then the crossing was bombed. People were separated from their loved ones, forced to leave them behind when only selected family members were allowed through. Can you imagine having to leave one child behind in that devastation because you have to get another child out? That's the sort of thing that happened.

Hospitals, ambulances, health care workers and patients seeking care are meant to be protected under international humanitarian law. Respecting that law should be part of moving towards peace.

I despise the people who committed the atrocities of October 7th. I despise the people who organised it and celebrated it. I want the victims and survivors to have justice. I also want justice for the innocent people being killed every day since then, and most of all, I want peace. I don't believe Gaza should become a wasteland and its people killed or displaced in order to achieve those.

Not only that, they actively de-humanise Palestinians - not only but most of all Palestinian men (and I say this as a feminist)!

Half of what I hear these days, not just online but even IRL - boils down do "nobody is killing them deliberately - but they deserve it!". Vile fucking shit!

I have "fired" quite a few friends since this war broke out - first among them the one who, literally, came out with "I never liked your ex". Well, guess what?! I did! I married the man, after all! As a matter of fact, I still do like him. We just have incompatible life goals!

I'm so sorry about this.

I don't know how to ask this question without sounding like an ignorant wanker, which I am. And I promise you I am not trying to be goady. I am sincerely trying to understand the situation.

The question, as best I can think to put it, is something like: With Hamas in charge for the past two decades, normal life must have been impossible. What (if any) were their opportunities to leave, and why did they choose to stay?

That's the one, @Parkingt111

@HeidiInTheBigCity I hope your friends and family stay safe, it's a horrible time. I think a lot of people overlook that Palestinians and their loved ones are people too.

@Scirocco oh no which hospital today? Yesterday there was on the Al Amal hospital and a 5 day old baby was sadly amongst those killed

I am so very sorry! And, yes, of course you get to be upset and snarky! As much as you want to!

FWIW, I have no friends in Gaza - but I certainly do (as well as former in-laws, whom I still appreciate) in the WB. Including one in prison. I am sitting on needles on a daily basis, hoping he will make it out alive and relatively healthy.

Regarding a sustainable peace, EU's foreign policy made these remarks which I think he is correct on

I believe that we have learned in these 30 years that the solution has to be imposed from outside because the two parties will never be able to reach an agreement.
If this tragedy doesn’t end soon, the entire Middle East might end up in flames.

There's just been yet another strike on a hospital. Waiting to hear if any more of my friends and colleagues are dead. I hope you'll forgive me for being a bit upset, given that I know people there, would trust them with my life and am entirely confident that they are not terrorists.

I understand what you're saying, @Scirocco, but describing what's happening as "using hospitals for target practice" seems to me to be rather minimising what Israel is responding to here (I draw a veil over your interpretation of Israel's intentions).

Perhaps we should also add in as a step towards peace that people should stop using hospitals for either target practice or as launching pads for missile attacks.

It's not really as straightforward as that, though.

Firstly, in relation to Jerusalem, its status has been argued over for years. East Jerusalem is still considered an occupied territory as well as the capital of a Palestinian state by many countries.

Secondly, if a peace and border agreement did end up with an internationally agreed recognition of Jerusalem in its entirety as the capital of Israel, that's not going to solve things in and of itself.

I think an important first step towards peace is reaching a point where people can accept that other people should have rights too. Rights to live freely in their homes, rights to food and drink and healthcare, rights to safety. And not in a conditional or "well, collateral damage doesn't count" way. Human rights need to be for every human, or it means nothing to try to claim the moral high ground. We're not even at that point yet.

I honestly try to avoid the word "Zionism" for ... basically the reasons you mentioned, among others!

Beyond the basics (essentially, summarising quite crudely: "Jews are a nation as well as a religion and, as such have the right to national self-determination - ideally in Mandatory Palestine due to historical ties"), it can really go any way!

"Religious Zionism" (the party of Smotrich; though I think they have now merged again and have a new, longer name ...) is certainly "Zionist". It is also openly racially supremacist and far-right!

On the other end of the "zionist" spectrum, you will find folks that, essentially, advocate for a two-state solution within the 67 borders and vocally oppose the occupation.

And anything in between.

Honestly, I just do not find the term particularly useful for this reason!

Not sure why you have written this post to me? I was just pointing out that yourself and anyone here or in the real world that says what you did in that post is a Zionist because that is in fact basic Zionism. People just confuse it with political Zionism /the Zionist movement.

Oh and the self determine thing isn't just about Israel. It is that Jewish people around the world have the right to freely as Jews without prejudice. It is something that has also been part of Judaism/prayers said for a few thousand years, long before 1948 etc

Anyway sorry to disturb you conversation on this thread. It was just that your post struck me as a good example of how some posters believe what the average Zionist does without even realising it. I just had to comment on that.

I pragmatically think that it's both wrong and impractical to remove people from an area where they have been born and brought up in. I don't think it necessarily needs to be in a Jewish state, or the state of Israel as it currently is, if the safety and rights of the current inhabitants are respected. My concern is for the human rights of individuals only.

I think citizens of Israel (I don't give a monkeys who is what religion) have as much right to self determination as Palestinians do. And it's the Palestinians whose basic rights are being most abused right now

Universal human rights (excluding Palestinians, Muslims and minorities deemed inconvenient)

The main stumbling block to peace is that when the Palestinians hear the self appointed arbiters of morality, in the west, talk about universal human rights they mistakenly think they are included.

When discussing the illegal occupation of the West Bank land, that's not comparable and you know it.

Extremist 'settlers', at times actively aided by the IDF, came and seized that land by force, killing and driving out innocent civilians. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be ok to just accept it if that happened to you, so perhaps you could explain why you don't think innocent victims of those crimes should be entitled to have their homes and land returned to them?

Do you not acknowledge that Israeli settlers, backed by the state, steal land, and are stealing land right now, in the West Bank?