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Conflict in the Middle East

Towards a sustainable peace

392 replies

mids2019 · 01/01/2024 16:20

I think for a peace to be obtained constructive dialogue has to be started but in order for this to happen in my opinion Palestine has to acknowledge and their leaders publically denounce the heinous acts of October 7th and make clear such an event will never be repeated.

There have been to many senior Palestinian politicians wishing their grievances to be heard without mentioning October 7th and this will only have the effect of enraging Israel.

We need Palestinian leadership that is willing to sit down with Israeli leaders and from the outset denounce violence specifically making it absolutely clear there will be no 'revenge' for the current Israeli incursion.

We also need to be pragmatic and understand Israel will not be giving Gaza any financial aid so it will be up to the richer gulf states primarily to discuss funding some sort of rebuilding within Gaza. Also eventually there needs to be opportunities for Palestinians to emigrate in order to gain jobs and allow future generations to thrive. I think ultimately you would have to view Gaza as a city state with a multi million rebuilding package coming from those supportive nations in the middle east.

We also need to ensure education in Gaza is such that anti semitiism isn't promoted from a young age so we have a chance for a generation of Palestinians growing up knowing the only way forward is peace.

I think there is a peace to be had if both sides want it and are willing to negotiate positivist with a commitment to prevent terrorism and ensure there is security for both parties.

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mids2019 · 04/01/2024 08:52

@WatTyler

I agree Israel has the perfect right to defend itself as any state does. The eradication of Hamas and it's hard filled ideology has to be an existential priority for the Israeli state currently. That is why in any future governance arrangement including a two state solution security has to be paramount.

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WatTyler · 04/01/2024 08:49

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youngones1 · 04/01/2024 08:40

I think Isreal needs to denounce their genocide in Gaza and apologise to the Palestinians. Perhaps there could one state with equal votes to every citizen, Israeli or Palestinian and everyone can live together as one nation.

mids2019 · 04/01/2024 08:35

@EasterIssland .

I guess it means what you mean by restrictions. If you have an autonomous state of is up to you how you trade and mange relationships with your neighbours (that is what states do). Whatbrestrictiins would be placed on Palestine if they had true autonomy?

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mids2019 · 04/01/2024 08:33

@EasterIssland .

Ok the same country but geographically separate? I guess we have foreign territories such as Gibraltar but there is an element of significant autonomy in reality simply because of governmental reality. For instance Gaza and the West Bank have different elected leaders (perhaps one group chose a little more widely then the other but that is another debate).

Would you have to go through two separate border controls to move between the tparts of the same country?

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EasterIssland · 04/01/2024 08:25

mids2019 · 04/01/2024 08:21

@Tripper79

I didn't realise Jeruslam was partly included in the West bank so I guess a split capital may work. For split capitals and territory I think you do need strong borders and borders do matter not least due to securtiy. Sovreignty is well sovreign.

I guess then that leaves how Gaza would be linked to the West Bank as a functioning state?

Gaza and West Bank are Palestine. They’re the same country.

EasterIssland · 04/01/2024 08:23

mids2019 · 04/01/2024 08:15

@EasterIssland

I agree both groups should benefit from peace but in order to support the peace there need to be clear demarcation of land and resources (as referenced by your link to international legal findings on illegal settlement). I think international law will have a big part to play in a finalised settlement that leads to lasting peace and it is up to both sides to recognise the law of the whole international community.

why should the Palestinian people not benefit from peace; certainly it looks like they are not benefiting from war? It is perhaps for the international community to determine how best to economically support Paletinians in the first instance?

Of course Palestinian would benefit from peace. However , it really depends on the restrictions they’re imposed that they will benefit from the peace or not

mids2019 · 04/01/2024 08:21

@Tripper79

I didn't realise Jeruslam was partly included in the West bank so I guess a split capital may work. For split capitals and territory I think you do need strong borders and borders do matter not least due to securtiy. Sovreignty is well sovreign.

I guess then that leaves how Gaza would be linked to the West Bank as a functioning state?

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mids2019 · 04/01/2024 08:18

@EasterIssland

I was looking at the wrong map sorry.I guess it makes sense then to have a split capital but then the West bank has to have clear bohndaries.

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mids2019 · 04/01/2024 08:15

@EasterIssland

I agree both groups should benefit from peace but in order to support the peace there need to be clear demarcation of land and resources (as referenced by your link to international legal findings on illegal settlement). I think international law will have a big part to play in a finalised settlement that leads to lasting peace and it is up to both sides to recognise the law of the whole international community.

why should the Palestinian people not benefit from peace; certainly it looks like they are not benefiting from war? It is perhaps for the international community to determine how best to economically support Paletinians in the first instance?

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Tripper79 · 04/01/2024 08:14

mids2019 · 04/01/2024 08:08

@Tripper79 .

I agree but every stage is entitled to a capital and so it makes sense as the the seat of government in Israel Jeruslaem is the capital of Israel. It does pose a problem about the governance of a Palestinian state as how can you have a Palstinian capital that is not embedded within its territory? I guess we did have Berlin during the USSR period but ultimately that was a bad model (though I remember Bonn being the western German capital).

If Palestine has a capital in Jeruslam how does governance work as it would have to be done in a remote manner?

There may be possible way forward but it is difficult.

Part of Jerusalem is in Palestinian territory, it’s in the West Bank, why would it have to be remote in any way?!

EasterIssland · 04/01/2024 08:10

mids2019 · 04/01/2024 08:08

@Tripper79 .

I agree but every stage is entitled to a capital and so it makes sense as the the seat of government in Israel Jeruslaem is the capital of Israel. It does pose a problem about the governance of a Palestinian state as how can you have a Palstinian capital that is not embedded within its territory? I guess we did have Berlin during the USSR period but ultimately that was a bad model (though I remember Bonn being the western German capital).

If Palestine has a capital in Jeruslam how does governance work as it would have to be done in a remote manner?

There may be possible way forward but it is difficult.

It does pose a problem about the governance of a Palestinian state as how can you have a Palstinian capital that is not embedded within its territory?

Error

feom Wikipedia

East Jerusalem (Arabic: القدس الشرقية, al-Quds ash-Sharqiya; Hebrew: מִזְרַח יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, Mizraḥ Yerushalayim) is the sector of Jerusalem that was held by Jordan after the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, as opposed to the western sector of the city, West Jerusalem, which was held by Israel.[a]Under international law, East Jerusalem is considered a part of the West Bank and, therefore, of the Palestinian territories

so yes . Part of Jerusalem is embedded in the Palestinian territory unless you’re suggesting to wipe out west bank and force them to become Israel

mids2019 · 04/01/2024 08:08

@Tripper79 .

I agree but every stage is entitled to a capital and so it makes sense as the the seat of government in Israel Jeruslaem is the capital of Israel. It does pose a problem about the governance of a Palestinian state as how can you have a Palstinian capital that is not embedded within its territory? I guess we did have Berlin during the USSR period but ultimately that was a bad model (though I remember Bonn being the western German capital).

If Palestine has a capital in Jeruslam how does governance work as it would have to be done in a remote manner?

There may be possible way forward but it is difficult.

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EasterIssland · 04/01/2024 08:06

mids2019 · 04/01/2024 08:02

@EasterIssland

I think in any peace process it is important to acknowledge grievances but ultimately set them aside. Despite the horrors of WW2. Including the use of atomic weapons Germany, Japan, the UK and the US have all good relations currently. Peace can happen and must happen ultimately; it is a path we need.currently

the question of illegal segments is a difficult one as you have to ask which law is being applied to make them illegal (I assume an international one). If we are to use international law (and that has its challenges) we would have to respect the I international communities views on stage borders and indeed it will be I international arbiters that would need to oversee the precise nature of the Palestinian state and it's utility provision.

again this come down to state boundaries and governance. Where do you think the Israeli border should be and what is the Israeli obligation to all its neighbours?

Regarding settlements and why they’re illegal
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2019/01/chapter-3-israeli-settlements-and-international-law/

i say it again … for peace to be obtained then both Countries have to recognise the damage done and both have to get benefits of this peace. In your comments I can only obtain that Palestinians have to recognise the damage and that Israel should obtain as much as they want. This way you might obtain peace but it won’t last for long.

as another posted has highlighted and myself what do you do with Jerusalem being the capital and East Jerusalem/ West Bank?

mids2019 · 04/01/2024 08:02

@EasterIssland

I think in any peace process it is important to acknowledge grievances but ultimately set them aside. Despite the horrors of WW2. Including the use of atomic weapons Germany, Japan, the UK and the US have all good relations currently. Peace can happen and must happen ultimately; it is a path we need.currently

the question of illegal segments is a difficult one as you have to ask which law is being applied to make them illegal (I assume an international one). If we are to use international law (and that has its challenges) we would have to respect the I international communities views on stage borders and indeed it will be I international arbiters that would need to oversee the precise nature of the Palestinian state and it's utility provision.

again this come down to state boundaries and governance. Where do you think the Israeli border should be and what is the Israeli obligation to all its neighbours?

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Tripper79 · 04/01/2024 07:57

mids2019 · 04/01/2024 07:12

Isn't this all about borders primarily? Israel is a state and will continue to be a state and as such will have well defined borders and a state capital, Jerusalem, as all other states enjoy. I think we can all agree the Israelis have a right to a state and to have peaceful coexistence with their neighbours.

To this end there has to be joint agreement in the Arab world that Israel is not an enemy and has a right to exist. If this general.position is adopted then discussion about state borders between a nascent Palestinian state can begin through a diplomatic exercise and respecting international law (as it stands).

One thing that has to be made clear though is that after October 7th it is entirely understandable that Israel prioritises it's security and has the right to maintain border defences (as all states do) and importantly there is no obligation of aid to Palestine from Israel though you do hope good trading conditions would arise as between the majority of countries in the world.

Again in order to have peace there must be a considered peace process where grievance can be slowly set aside for a new order in that part of the world. We cannot and shouldn't stoke hatred as it was this sense of blind malice that engendered the horrific events of October 7th which cannot be repeated.

I wouldn’t say it’s primarily about borders, there’s a lot more factors at play. There’s also the issue that Jerusalem is not just the capital of Israel, it’s also the Palestinian capital and this is a dispute that won’t be easily resolved.

EasterIssland · 04/01/2024 07:55

mids2019 · 04/01/2024 07:15

@Trulywonderful

optimistic but I agree ultimately.

one thing that has to stop is hatred for other races and continues being embedded in school systems and we have to teach the children of Palestine that Israeli children are good and vice versa. In such a way the Palestinain people will understand the futility of supporting or allowing power for such groups as Hamas.

Should Israel kids continue to be taught that Arabs are bad and deserve to die ?

https://twitter.com/Nimrod_Flash/status/1659205850546974724

shall they continue been taught how to fire a weapon?
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170708-israel-gives-settler-children-firearms-training/amp/
https://www.newarab.com/opinion/ten-year-old-children-israeli-settlers-subjected-weapons-training?amp

shall the kids continue writing their names on shells that will be fired at other countries?

https://fullfact.org/online/children-writing-on-shells-bound-for-lebanon-not-gaza/

youre right … Palestinian kids shouldn’t be taught about hate but once again you lack the overall picture if you want to obtain peace in the area

EasterIssland · 04/01/2024 07:51

mids2019 · 04/01/2024 07:12

Isn't this all about borders primarily? Israel is a state and will continue to be a state and as such will have well defined borders and a state capital, Jerusalem, as all other states enjoy. I think we can all agree the Israelis have a right to a state and to have peaceful coexistence with their neighbours.

To this end there has to be joint agreement in the Arab world that Israel is not an enemy and has a right to exist. If this general.position is adopted then discussion about state borders between a nascent Palestinian state can begin through a diplomatic exercise and respecting international law (as it stands).

One thing that has to be made clear though is that after October 7th it is entirely understandable that Israel prioritises it's security and has the right to maintain border defences (as all states do) and importantly there is no obligation of aid to Palestine from Israel though you do hope good trading conditions would arise as between the majority of countries in the world.

Again in order to have peace there must be a considered peace process where grievance can be slowly set aside for a new order in that part of the world. We cannot and shouldn't stoke hatred as it was this sense of blind malice that engendered the horrific events of October 7th which cannot be repeated.

So settlers … which side of the borders will they stay?
Will they be allowed to live as they pleased in the Palestinian side?
and idf … are they Israel’s or Palestinian? Will they be allowed to arrest , torture , rape and keep forever people from the Palestinian side ?

and West Bank … what rights do they have ?

fibally , Gaza are they allowed to collect water ? How is electricity provided ? And food.? Can people live as they please Gaza? Can they also seek for medical help in West Bank when requested ?

If something is telling me from your op and this comment is that according to you Israel are owed everything and for that Palestinians should disappear and I say it again… this is not the way the peace will be obtained in the area

mids2019 · 04/01/2024 07:15

@Trulywonderful

optimistic but I agree ultimately.

one thing that has to stop is hatred for other races and continues being embedded in school systems and we have to teach the children of Palestine that Israeli children are good and vice versa. In such a way the Palestinain people will understand the futility of supporting or allowing power for such groups as Hamas.

OP posts:
mids2019 · 04/01/2024 07:12

Isn't this all about borders primarily? Israel is a state and will continue to be a state and as such will have well defined borders and a state capital, Jerusalem, as all other states enjoy. I think we can all agree the Israelis have a right to a state and to have peaceful coexistence with their neighbours.

To this end there has to be joint agreement in the Arab world that Israel is not an enemy and has a right to exist. If this general.position is adopted then discussion about state borders between a nascent Palestinian state can begin through a diplomatic exercise and respecting international law (as it stands).

One thing that has to be made clear though is that after October 7th it is entirely understandable that Israel prioritises it's security and has the right to maintain border defences (as all states do) and importantly there is no obligation of aid to Palestine from Israel though you do hope good trading conditions would arise as between the majority of countries in the world.

Again in order to have peace there must be a considered peace process where grievance can be slowly set aside for a new order in that part of the world. We cannot and shouldn't stoke hatred as it was this sense of blind malice that engendered the horrific events of October 7th which cannot be repeated.

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Trulywonderful · 04/01/2024 01:14

People need to be taught young about how to treat others and that we are all equal. That way one day there will be a peace that lasts generations

This is Israeli Sesame Street

https://twitter.com/Claire_V0ltaire/status/1735500689449578843

https://twitter.com/Claire_V0ltaire/status/1735500689449578843

Trulywonderful · 04/01/2024 00:20

Parkingt111 · 03/01/2024 19:51

I think people have an impression that living under Hamas means women can't work or are hidden away but it's definitely not the case. Even if you go and look at any video of a hospital taken during the war you will mostly find women doctors and nurses there working along side the men
The population has a very high literacy rate

Not really what your post is about but this is one of the videos I use as a resource in school for lessons about children and young people taking responsibility

I just thought of this when I read your post and thought you may like to see it. As it is a teenage girl that shows some girls in Gaza are pretty clever indeed

Spotlight Series: Coding for Good in Gaza

Although the limitations of promoting children’s participation during COVID-19 are strong, child-led and child-centric initiatives have emerged as the pandem...

https://youtu.be/tMvoJUuhOBE?si=JCbNZnxdE7FarkrS

Scirocco · 03/01/2024 22:59

@Dibilnik

The occupation of Gaza and oppression of its people predated Hamas coming to power, and things then got worse with the blockade.

Pre- October 7th:

Geographically, Gaza is a narrow strip, bordered on 2 sides by Israel, 1 side by Egypt and 1 side by the sea. Palestinian waters are severely limited and people can't leave that way. There are two crossing points for people - one into Israel and one into Egypt - and one crossing just for goods. All entry and exit decisions were overseen by non-Gazan security forces. Once you go in, it's not guaranteed that you get to come out. And once you come out, it's not guaranteed that you get to go back in. People crossing could experience harassment and power trips from security guards. To move patients across the border for essential treatments not available in Gaza would take lengthy approval processes and waiting times, and it wouldn't be unusual for the patient to die before approval came through.

Leaving and moving to a new country longer-term, legally, in most circumstances requires a person to have a visa or to seek asylum. As we can see from what the UK government has been discussing with visa rules, it can be very hard to get a visa to settle in a different country. Some people could get visas for studying or work, but that's not an option for most people, just like it wouldn't be an option for a lot of people in the UK to get visas and permanently relocate to a different country.

People couldn't leave other than at the externally approved checkpoints. The land border between Gaza and Israel had a very high fence and snipers watching over the imposed 'no man's land' on the Gazan side.

Supplies that were allowed in were tightly controlled. Some things that we would consider necessary for health, education and wellbeing were forbidden. For example, some specialist baby milk, crayons for children. For some parents, the only way to get baby milk so that their baby wouldn't die from starvation was to use the black market (which ultimately linked back to Hamas a lot of the time). There is evidence that the calorific/nutritional value of food supplies allowed in was in a range that would avoid starvation but would not meet the nutritional needs of the population (so, if people needed more, they would need to go to the black market). Despite that, there was a population that valued education and work, holding on to their culture, which had a lot in common with other countries in the region.

So, the majority of the population were unable to leave and also aware that if they left, they might not get back home. Gaza has been compared with a prison camp and that's not actually an inaccurate image, and reflects how many young men felt.

Once the Hamas government was established, they consolidated power quickly. Many people didn't like them being in power but there was really nothing they could do. In the UK, if you protest against the government you might get arrested and given a suspended sentence or a fine. In some parts of the world, if you protest against the government you might get shot. Many people disliked things but were too busy with trying to get by day to day with their own lives to have much time to devote to any form of regime change. Other people found themselves reliant on the black market and in financial and emotional debt to the people helping them keep their loved ones alive - it can be hard to sustain hate against the people who you believe saved your baby's life, and it can be hard to resist an instruction from those people if you know that disobedience places your loved ones in danger. And some people, often young men who were frustrated at the lives they were forced into and who perhaps had limited or no experience of life without Hamas, were vulnerable to radicalisation.

I firmly believe that there must be justice for October 7th and that the people responsible should face the full extent of the law. To make Israel, Palestine and the world safer, I do think we need to look in the long-term and ensure that whatever the cessation of hostilities looks like, it includes avoiding perpetuating this cycle of people hating each other.

Ok, rant over. That probably didn't make all that much sense as I'm exhausted and a bit upset, I'm afraid. I try not to post when I'm upset, but I wanted to try to answer your question. I don't know if I did though.

Parkingt111 · 03/01/2024 19:51

I think people have an impression that living under Hamas means women can't work or are hidden away but it's definitely not the case. Even if you go and look at any video of a hospital taken during the war you will mostly find women doctors and nurses there working along side the men
The population has a very high literacy rate

Parkingt111 · 03/01/2024 19:48

@Dibilnik I will let scirocco answer as you asked her but I hope its OK to add that for many living under Hamas was not much different to living in some of the surrounding countries I.e Egypt or Lebanon
The only major difference was the blockade which has a far worse impact than any other factors

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