Towards a sustainable peace

mids2019 · 2024-01-01T16:20:55+00:00

I think for a peace to be obtained constructive dialogue has to be started but in order for this to happen in my opinion Palestine has to acknowledge and their leaders publically denounce the heinous acts of October 7th and make clear such an event will never be repeated. There have been to many senior Palestinian politicians wishing their grievances to be heard without mentioning October 7th and this will only have the effect of enraging Israel. We need Palestinian leadership that is willing to sit down with Israeli leaders and from the outset denounce violence specifically making it absolutely clear there will be no 'revenge' for the current Israeli incursion. We also need to be pragmatic and understand Israel will not be giving Gaza any financial aid so it will be up to the richer gulf states primarily to discuss funding some sort of rebuilding within Gaza. Also eventually there needs to be opportunities for Palestinians to emigrate in order to gain jobs and allow future generations to thrive. I think ultimately you would have to view Gaza as a city state with a multi million rebuilding package coming from those supportive nations in the middle east. We also need to ensure education in Gaza is such that anti semitiism isn't promoted from a young age so we have a chance for a generation of Palestinians growing up knowing the only way forward is peace. I think there is a peace to be had if both sides want it and are willing to negotiate positivist with a commitment to prevent terrorism and ensure there is security for both parties.

Original poster

mids2019 · 09/01/2024 16:15

@Parkingt111

I guess it depends on what you consider leadership. There may be a separation of security responsibility and civilian governance. I wonder what the Arab states get in return for the rebuilding costs? I guess it is in their interests to have non violent
Palestinian governance as they wouldn't want to pay for another rebuild in 10 years time.

OP posts:

Parkingt111 · 09/01/2024 12:49

It doesn't mention the four Arab states but seeing as he has just visited Jordan, Qatar, UAE and Saudi then I am guessing it might be them

Parkingt111 · 09/01/2024 12:42

Taken from Sky:
"But the US and Israel remain deeply divided over how Gaza will operate when - and if - its Hamas rulers are defeated.
US officials have called for the Palestinian Authority, which currently governs parts of the Israeli-occupied West Bank, to take over and for negotiations to resume on the creation of a Palestinian state.
Israeli leaders have refused both."

Parkingt111 · 09/01/2024 12:41

Sky news is reporting that Blinken has said he has secured commitments for re-building Gaza from four Arab states and Turkey. However the US and Israel are still deeply divided on who will take over the leadership of Gaza after the war

Polka83 · 08/01/2024 20:53

mids2019 · 08/01/2024 20:24

I think given the manner of death of both Israelis and Palestinians in number ultimately surely from a humanitarian view this must be a huge motivation for peace at some point? We don't want to revisit 2023.

Personally I hope we are over the most bloodiest part of this war and it is seeming less and less likely Hamas forces are capable of acting as a military force.

A challenge now is how long in reality a tent city can be maintained near Rafah and how the U.N. can support it. In reality the U.N. probably has a mixed relationship with Israel from an institutional perspective so there could be challenges there. One question I have is would it look like the U.N. would be facilitating Israeli strategy by maintaing a tent city indefinitely to allow Israeli mopping up operations? I don't think the Palestinians will necessarily be grateful for aid when constituent countries of the U.N. specifically the U.S. are invested in Israel.

Further afield I don't think there is going to be major escalation as it is in none of the regional players' interests.

However I do think there may have been a hole from Hamas that Hezbollah and maybe Iran may have launched major operations against Israel and perhaps there is still that hope? Ultimately Hamas laying down arms quickly will help the immediate ceasefire and ending of civilian deaths to take hold

I think it would considerably help if Israel allows sufficient humanitarian aid into Gaza. How would it work with Israel being involved in the future running of Gaza if they were found to have committed war crimes or even genocide in Gaza? Will not help in gaining trust of Gazans? I wonder if they will also need to pay reparations for the destruction they have caused? Might help with rebuilding Gaza for Palestinians?

Original poster

mids2019 · 08/01/2024 20:24

I think given the manner of death of both Israelis and Palestinians in number ultimately surely from a humanitarian view this must be a huge motivation for peace at some point? We don't want to revisit 2023.

Personally I hope we are over the most bloodiest part of this war and it is seeming less and less likely Hamas forces are capable of acting as a military force.

A challenge now is how long in reality a tent city can be maintained near Rafah and how the U.N. can support it. In reality the U.N. probably has a mixed relationship with Israel from an institutional perspective so there could be challenges there. One question I have is would it look like the U.N. would be facilitating Israeli strategy by maintaing a tent city indefinitely to allow Israeli mopping up operations? I don't think the Palestinians will necessarily be grateful for aid when constituent countries of the U.N. specifically the U.S. are invested in Israel.

Further afield I don't think there is going to be major escalation as it is in none of the regional players' interests.

However I do think there may have been a hole from Hamas that Hezbollah and maybe Iran may have launched major operations against Israel and perhaps there is still that hope? Ultimately Hamas laying down arms quickly will help the immediate ceasefire and ending of civilian deaths to take hold

OP posts:

Thereissomelight · 08/01/2024 17:50

.
This article is from January 2023.
Again, a real nerve to claim that all was peace and fluffiness before Oct 7.

Israel’s far right hits ground running, and ripple effects are already being felt

Ultranationalist religious rulers sworn in last week have made explicit what was previously obscured: annexation

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/07/israel-far-right-ultranationalist-hits-ground-running-and-ripple-effects-are-being-felt

gloriagloria · 08/01/2024 11:58

Thereissomelight · 08/01/2024 10:07

There will never be peace while he is in power. He belongs in prison.

I think one of the very few positives glimmers that have come out of the last few months is that both the Israeli people and the West are finally acknowledging Netanyahu for who he is.

Livinginanotherworld · 08/01/2024 11:24

EmberLight · 08/01/2024 09:00

I've heard a few posters argue that Oct 7th is worse because of how the deaths happened.

Trust me. Having an apartment block fall on you is not a nice way to go. Either is getting maimed by shrapnel. Or having bits of your body blown off. Or being taken out of your incubator and being abandoned to suffocate without oxygen. Or dying injured and trapped under rubble because no one can get you out.

Israel have killed more than 20 times the number of people who were killed in the Hamas attack. Thousands and thousands of children. And I don't know how many people they've rounded up and detained but it's a lot.

This.

Parkingt111 · 08/01/2024 10:54

@etmoiandme thank you, I will see if I can find it on amazon

etmoiandme · 08/01/2024 10:49

@Parkingt111 Honestly, it can never be overstated how much of a tragedy that was. Leah Rabin published an autobiography, which I think you'd find interesting.

Thereissomelight · 08/01/2024 10:47

He was both a pacifist and very courageous and it cost him his life.

Parkingt111 · 08/01/2024 10:39

@etmoiandme that's interesting I never knew that. What a tragedy his death was, he seemed like a good man.

etmoiandme · 08/01/2024 10:37

@Thereissomelight That Netanyahu may have played a role in helping to incite the murder is well known. Rabin's wife Leah spoke out against him on many occasions.

Thereissomelight · 08/01/2024 10:07

There will never be peace while he is in power. He belongs in prison.

Thereissomelight · 08/01/2024 10:06

Netanyahu has a lot of nerve, blaming lack of peace on the Palestinians.

Thereissomelight · 08/01/2024 10:05

Rabin assassination

Below is quite a troubling Wiki article about the assassination of Rabin and why the 1993 peace process signed by Rabin and Arafat failed. In terms of the background to the assassination (which was carried out by an ultranationalist Israeli law student), our friend Netanyahu’s name comes up quite a lot.

I had a look at some wiki entries on ultranationalism and a lot of it struck a chord.

Assassination of Yitzhak Rabin - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Yitzhak_Rabin

Dibilnik · 08/01/2024 10:01

Babyboomtastic · 08/01/2024 09:52

So when it's the horrors of one side, you like to talk about it, when is the other side it's all 'this is derailing ' and 'let's move on'.

I can see why you might not want to get drawn into speculation why, but it's not particularly complimentary is it?

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What are you on about? I wrote one sentence to challenge ThereIs's very black-and-white declaration and have not taken the bait when you all piled on me since. And I'm not taking it now. Because I've learned that this is never a discussion, so there is no point discussing it.

Anyway, can we stop derailing the thread please?

Babyboomtastic · 08/01/2024 09:52

Dibilnik · 08/01/2024 09:41

Let's not get drawn into speculation about why I feel the way I do.

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So when it's the horrors of one side, you like to talk about it, when is the other side it's all 'this is derailing ' and 'let's move on'.

I can see why you might not want to get drawn into speculation why, but it's not particularly complimentary is it?

Dibilnik · 08/01/2024 09:41

Babyboomtastic · 08/01/2024 09:06

Absolutely. If there was a livestream of a toddler dying alone under rubble for days, then there'd be a lot more horrified people. But because we can't see it, it enables people to blank the horror from their minds.

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Let's not get drawn into speculation about why I feel the way I do.

BelleHathor · 08/01/2024 09:19

Polka83 · 08/01/2024 00:56

Leaks from a U.S. confidential report initially to the Washington Post suggests concerns that Israel would not cope with fighting a second front:

According to the WP, in private conversations, the White House warned Israel against escalation in Lebanon as U.S. officials fear the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) may struggle to succeed due to "its military assets and resources would be spread too thin given the conflict in Gaza," the report cited two people familiar with a new secret assessment from the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)

And:

Biden's administration appears alarmed that Hezbollah could strike deeper into Israeli territory than before, "hitting sensitive targets like petrochemical plants and nuclear reactors, and Iran may activate militias across the region."

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1704621759-u-s-concerned-over-israel-s-chances-if-hezbollah-joins-war-full-scale-report

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Thanks, seems like Bibi has a leak in his cabinet.

The analysis tallies with what former Generals, marines, cia analysts, diplomats and think tanks have been saying for weeks.

Escalating with Hezbollah is delusion, but it appears that there is someone in the cabinet who wants that in the hopes of drawing America to join.

"The last thing President Biden wants during re-election season is a war between Israel and Hezbollah that could drag the US into the conflict and lead to a direct confrontation with Iran.
Not only will this be terrible strategically, but politically, too. Biden’s progressive constituency is already applying intense pressure on his administration to end the war in Gaza."
https://www.chathamhouse.org/2023/11/closer-israel-gets-destroying-hamas-more-likely-war-hezbollah-becomes

Babyboomtastic · 08/01/2024 09:06

EmberLight · 08/01/2024 09:00

I've heard a few posters argue that Oct 7th is worse because of how the deaths happened.

Trust me. Having an apartment block fall on you is not a nice way to go. Either is getting maimed by shrapnel. Or having bits of your body blown off. Or being taken out of your incubator and being abandoned to suffocate without oxygen. Or dying injured and trapped under rubble because no one can get you out.

Israel have killed more than 20 times the number of people who were killed in the Hamas attack. Thousands and thousands of children. And I don't know how many people they've rounded up and detained but it's a lot.

Absolutely. If there was a livestream of a toddler dying alone under rubble for days, then there'd be a lot more horrified people. But because we can't see it, it enables people to blank the horror from their minds.

EmberLight · 08/01/2024 09:00

I've heard a few posters argue that Oct 7th is worse because of how the deaths happened.

Trust me. Having an apartment block fall on you is not a nice way to go. Either is getting maimed by shrapnel. Or having bits of your body blown off. Or being taken out of your incubator and being abandoned to suffocate without oxygen. Or dying injured and trapped under rubble because no one can get you out.

Israel have killed more than 20 times the number of people who were killed in the Hamas attack. Thousands and thousands of children. And I don't know how many people they've rounded up and detained but it's a lot.

Dibilnik · 08/01/2024 08:43

I'm not going to get drawn into these circular arguments about the ethics of war. Let's not derail an otherwise interesting thread.

Babyboomtastic · 08/01/2024 08:41

Dibilnik · 08/01/2024 08:33

Not in my mind it hasn't, and that has nothing to do with the relative value of lives, and everything to do with the intentionally sadistic and horrific manner of deaths.

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I think it's easy to sanitise deaths when all someone does is press a button to release a bomb. When someone dies that knowing the bomb will hit civilians, its no less horrific. It just means you don't have to watch them as they die.

Lucky are those that die immediately in a bomb. Many don't. As I type this, there are young children, toddlers even, currently trapped in rubble, with agonising wounds that they will slowly die from if they dont suffocate first. Alone. This isn't something that happened in one awful occasion 3 months ago, it's something that's happening 24 hours a day for those 3 months now. It's the most horrifying death I can think of, if I'm honest.

Israel knows it's bombs do this. They have prevented rescue machinery being able to operate and then bombed the hospitals where these children would be taken. Sadistic seems like an understatement.