WHY!!!

I mean, I'm not a statistician. But if you multiply these survival percentages by the actual time involved (hours versus months), the evidence of genocidal intentions is pretty clear.

Israel has carefully censored distressing images, unlike Hamas who seem to promote them on social media. I guess images of dead babies, and body counts, are much easier to access and share than something that requires an attention span.

Regarding Israel/Palestine, I recently read Jeremy Bowen's excellent 'The Making of the Modern Middle East', which is partly about his life as BBC Middle East correspondent, and also the general history of the region. One point that keeps coming back is that Israel's leaders have really internalised this idea that the Palestinians just have to accept they are defeated. That they must be crushed again and again until the accept that this is it, this is all they're getting. But of course that will never happen, and of course people will use that defiance to repeat attacks on Israel (funded by countries that don't want Israel to exist) and so the cycle continues, and it's just horror all round, especially, in my opinion, for the Palestinians who will never have the firepower that Israel has.

I'm Jewish and I can't see how they end this. I want there to be a country where Palestinians and Jews can live together, but I don't see how it can happen with the leadership on both sides being as they are and with the high emotions attached to sites in Jerusalem etc for Muslims and Jewish people.

Those stats are misleading. Certain neighbourhoods in Gaza have had enormous loss of life. Lumping all of Gaza into one stat is disingenuous.

Those percentages really put things into perspective.

99% chance of survival in Gaza
80% chance of survival at festival
20% chance of survival in Kibbutz

Never seem it like this before.

All horrific. Puts the use of the word genocide into context (I don't want any killings by the way)

I'm sorry, I didn't realise I used wrong link.

I totally agree with you. Sadly, there is more to this than general horror at war.

@Mushroomsouptonight
I think you mean this link 😊

It's heavily censored, out of respect for the deceased, and I suspect most people just can't be bothered watching it.

So interesting that this actual genocide is so underplayed, I wonder why? People literally hunted down for hours, attacked in their safe rooms, attacked in shelters with grenades and machine guns. On 7 October, if you were at Nova Festival, you had a roughly 90% chance of survival. If you lived in one of the kibbutzim attacked, you had a ~20% chance of survival. All this annihilation happened within a few hours.

Three months into the war, if you live in Gaza, you have a 99% chance of survival. And yet it's Israel being accused of deliberate genocide.

To go back to your op, OP, I am not in favour of war, but I think it's a bit smug not to realise what a luxury it is not to have to fight one.

Well you've had a few posters here justifying the genocide in Gaza so there you go. Some people do think it's OK and find any way to justify this evil.

Depressing.

Hopefully you have watched this @Mrsmulhern . Many ask, then don't actually read or watch what others show and share.

The video in French above of the people at the festival hiding scared, whilst terrorists, and ordinary Palestinian men ran around killing people, ends with pictures showing which of those hiding in terror, in the short clip were either assinated or taken hostage.

Hamas want to wipe out all Jewish people and Israel doesn't want that to happen and in its grief the government declared war on Hamas. Many thousands of innocent people have been killed. It's sickening to watch. People of both Gaza and Israel dying.

I get your hoping for simplicity. If only as simple as you say, however, terrorists don't think like you do. They don't want to sit down, divide land and stick to their area, they have sworn to wipe out Israel and its people. Israel and the US and also Germany are showing support for Israel and won't allow it.

We all wish it was simplistic and if the entire world had that innocent childlike thinking it could be achieved. However, terrorists, fascists, dictatorships, evil individuals, etc sadly, don't think in childlike ways, they are evil and not fighting back against them, means being slaughtered.

Somewhere in the middle, negotiations will hopefully stop this awful war as quickly as possible. Sadly, there are other conflicts and terrorism going on in many countries, have a look, fortunately this one isn't being ignored as many are, for many reasons other than just killing people is bad. Maybe, some will wake up to all the killing in other countries and speak up about those too, otherwise, why not?

I meant that they were harmless and had the very best of intentions, like OP. Look where that gets you.

Dancing for peace seriously? They were at a party with not much thought about what their Palestinian neighbours living in an apartheid state endure. What happened was beyond awful, but it was a party.

Jerusalem by Simon Sebag Montefiore gives a balanced view of the history of Jerusalem.

To answer your question "WHAT does anyone have to be afraid of?" - maybe this sort of thing?

These kids were pacifists, dancing for peace.

@Mrsmulhern people are saying you're being naive/ immature/uneducated but I fully understand what you're saying and how you feel. I feel and think the same. No, I'm not saying it's 'that simple' or that it's anything other than inextricably complex.
But brought back to the simplest, most child-like level, it's natural to wonder just why. Theoretically, it CAN just be stopped.

It's the complete naivety of people like the OP assuming they are the only one questioning any war etc. Did they suddenly discover war in the last couple of months. Many of us have always peacefully made our voices heard (although the pro one side protests are IMO divisive).

I must assume @Mrsmulhern that are very young to think you are the only one against war in general.

why is nobody questioning any war, anywhere?!

Wars (or the causes of wars rather) tend to be complicated though. Often diplomacy/peace talks are encouraged. No-one really thinks wars are a great idea.

Maybe go on that thread Pizdietz linked to if you haven’t already.

@Hellenika
the shrug and going ah well, necessary evil, going to just look away, let me know when it’s over, the blood is mopped up and the bodies buried is much easier than getting angry about all this and marching the streets to demand peace.

Just out of interest, if it were Jewish people getting angry and marching the streets to demand peace, how would you go about helping them to achieve it?

😁

I think if I lived in a kibbutz near the Gaza strip, I'd just light some incense and play John Lennon's War is Over and hope for the best.

why is nobody questioning any war, anywhere?!

Yes you're the only one who's ever questioned any war OP, well done.

WHAT does anyone have to be afraid of?
That's quite easy to say from the safety and comfort of your home today. Would you fancy living in Israel after what happened on 7 October, and the promises to repeat it again and again and again?

You might find this thread helpful in answering some of your questions:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/AMA/4967191-im-a-jewish-israeli-ama

Oh sorry, cleared the quote.

I mean why as human beings can we not just put an end to everything!! And if your answer is well we don’t want ‘terrorists’.. Literally 99 percent of humans do not want that either.

What's the reason for the quotation marks there OP? Do you disagree with the statement?

I think the arms sales are why the US Congress voted overwhelmingly against what the people of the US said they wanted in polls. Two thirds of Americans want a ceasefire but only 11% of Congress voted for one.

Congress and Biden instead have sent thousands of bombs, weapons, warships and UAVs to Israel. In the US, lobbying is legal. Lobbying involves big defence corporations donating money to members of Congress’ “campaign funds” (which is how they keep their jobs and move up the political leader career ladder by running for other political positions of power). In return the member of Congress looks out for their interests, interests like voting for more arms sales so the weapons manufacturers can keep getting the big bucks from the US government.

These defense corporations NEED the US to always be involved in at least two wars to keep on getting rich. They have been itching to go after Iran ever since Iraq & Afghanistan and are quietly pushing a narrative that Iran is behind all of this conflict as once Gaza is destroyed, they’d dearly love to invade Iran. Unlike Gaza which is a genocide that can be done in under a year, Iran could provide a steady cash cow for twenty years.

I agree OP. The idea that war is complex and a necessary evil is a lie we tell children and then as adults internalise to assuage our own conscience when we see the reports of wanton death and destruction. It’s hard to be helpless and the shrug and going ah well, necessary evil, going to just look away, let me know when it’s over, the blood is mopped up and the bodies buried is much easier than getting angry about all this and marching the streets to demand peace.

It’s not complex. Humanity could just stop if those in power who made the decisions to go to war just put that as not an option. Unfortunately, the saying that power corrupts is true. There is something evil in humans that when we amass power of life and death over others we find excuses to wield it.

Excuses we then push out to our subordinates and many are happy to be our lap dogs and will happily repeat excuses for killing children by saying things like they are taught from an early age to hate, so they deserve to die now, it’s complex, and you’re the child if you are against pre-emptive killing of children before they might become terrorists or genociding soldiers.

Sadly op I think there is something innate in humans (men) that wants the war, destruction and the cruelty. Every phase in history every few generations this happens. Over and over again - since dawn of time. A cursory knowledge of history confirms this.

All that “Remembrance day” “never again” “we Will remember” po faced talk. Nah. Men want this. They must do or we wouldn’t keep doing it to ourselves repeatedly ad infinitum.

Oh my god. The insufferable responses here are doing my head in. I'm with you OP. It is absolutely enraging to witness such awfulness. It is enraging to see it play out in real time and be utterly powerless. I hear you. I don't have answers but hate breeds hate. There are huge historical wounds, anger and falsehoods at play.