WHY!!!

@MercanDede The blockade and security fences were to prevent a massacre the likes of October 7th. Based on the amount of humanitarian aid and resources provided to Gaza over the years, by Israel and the international community, Gaza could have built up its own economy. Instead, they've chosen to use this funding and aid to build terror infrastructure. The blame for their poor economy lies with Hamas, its government.
I agree fully that Hamas ideology cannot be conquered through military tactics alone. A complete remodeling of the Gazans education and ideology needs to happen before Israel and Palestine will be able to live peacefully side by side. I believe this is Israel's ultimate aim.

Israel has not “left Gaza alone since 2005”. There has been a strict blockade in place that has caused their economy to regress, as well as numerous military airstrikes and ground incursions that caused £100s of billions in damage to infrastructure. All prior to Oct 7th. The UN and ICC recognise that Gaza has been occupied by Israel since 1967. The “border” between Gaza and Israel is an internal border, it is not an international border. It is also a massive concrete wall manned with machine gun nests and patrolled by soldiers to keep Gazans in.

The Likud charter and statements by numerous Israeli government ministers indicates there is a lot of interest in clearing Gaza of Palestinians and then annexing it. This interest predates Oct 7th. The Israeli operations have been widely recognised by military analysts even U.S. analysts to be the sort a government would employ to effectively achieve these aims.

As with most wars, there are layers of reasons for it. I don’t deny that Hamas is a security threat to Israel, however Israel’s current operations in Gaza have been widely acknowledged by numerous military analysts to be pointless and counterproductive in that not only will it not eliminate Hamas, it is more likely to strengthen Hamas.

So per multiple military analysts, the actions of Israel match best one part of their stated aims- and it’s not the aim to eliminate Hamas. Why else do you think the US has been criticising Israel’s military tactics on Gaza while supporting the aim to eliminate Hamas? They know from fighting ISIS that there is a mismatch.

@MercanDede Israel has little interest in the land of Gaza itself. They have left Gaza alone since 2005.
Prior to October 7th it perceived its border with Gaza as impenetrable, now that this has been proven wrong, Israel has no choice but to remove the threat. This threat is Hamas who have stated that they would repeat October 7th until Israel is gone. "From the River to the sea.."
This war is driven solely by Israel's need for security, to remove the threat that is Hamas and destroy its infrastructure. Israel is determine to secure it's borders. Denying Israel of this is antisemitic.

I’m not suggesting the war on Gaza is driven by geopolitical aims, I am stating that it is the case with almost all wars. It doesn’t have antiSemitic implications for the prior poster to state their opinion that this war is no exception to an almost universal fact of wars. Instead, you are taking a very peculiar stance by thinking that Israel is somehow unique, would never fight a war driven by geopolitical aims and to think otherwise is antisemitic.

I have seen many threads on MN discussing whether something is racist or not and there being disagreement with no one being crucified for having an opinion, I don’t see how this is an exception to that.

For the rest of your post, that is not at all what we were discussing. However, there is evidence that some Jews are being taught that the people in Gaza are bad.
https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/11/27/fact-check-did-israeli-children-really-sing-about-annihilating-everyone-in-gaza

October 7th was a war crime against the civilians of an occupying state, in the context of a larger, long drawn out war between Israeli occupation forces and Hamas as well as its predecessors such as PLO. It is a mistake to characterise the entire conflict between Israel and Hamas by one war crime committed by either side. I make the comparison on a whole picture basis.

There isn’t really a huge difference between the two when looking at the whole picture instead of on one war crime done by one combatant side. It’s unreasonable to say analogies in wars have to be based on one type of attack by one side.

Russia has a much more recent historical claim on Ukraine than does Israel on the Palestinian Territories. Kyiv, the capital of Ukraine, was quite literally the birthplace of the Russian nation in early medieval times and the entire territory has historically been part of Russia for over 1,000yrs, up until Ukraine attained independence a century ago.

Similarly, the Holy Land, as in the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judea which were conquered and died out over 2,000 years ago, included Israel, the Palestinian Territories, Lebanon and parts of Jordan. Israel wants all of it back on the basis of historical past ownership, not from a century ago, but over 2,000yrs ago.

The fact that Ukraine hasn’t used terrorism to fight against Russia doesn’t invalidate the comparison between the conflicts in terms of the objective being the acquisition of land by right of historical ownership.

@Mrsmulhern have you namechanged? Am confused...

I don't get it. I seriously get arguing over politics / religion. But killing people. Bombing homes. I'm like wtf we aren't savages

I am afraid that suggesting Israel’s war on Gaza is driven by a desire for resources rather than properly acknowledging the invidious position they find themselves in post 7 October does have some unsavoury anti semitic implications. I also love that if you dared to tell a black person what was racist or not you’d be absolutely crucified for it, but people feel very ok telling you how what they’re saying is not anti semitic.

OP said: ‘The Jews living in Israel are also taught that the people in Gaza are inherently bad.’

This is a really problematic position to hold and state as fact. If you can’t see why this hints at a clear prejudice then that says a lot.

@MercanDede

Young people at a music festival, the elderly and children are not an occupying military. And Hamas is not fighting to win Palestinian self determination on an equal basis to Israeli Jews (ie two states with equal rights) its aim is for a theocratic state in all of pre 1948 Palestine purged of Jews.

An analogy would arise if a far right Ukrainian militia was conducting incursions into Russia itself, slaughtering Russian civilians, taking Russian civilians hostage, all on the basis of a political programme explicitly advocating the destruction of Russia. There is no such situation in the Ukraine and nor any prospect of one. And If there was it wouldn't be supported.

There are huge differences between the two.

@BigandBeefy why not ask Mumsnet if you want to know why it was deleted. They are normally quite forthcoming if they think you have stepped out of line?

Very interesting thread. I think the prisoners dilemma was a good way to illustrate why countries all have a ministry of defence and all have a budget for weapons and military personnel even in times of peace. There is no trust. Unfortunately, the current wars in Ukraine and Gaza are highlighting double standards in the West which is going to have repercussions for world peace and perhaps even lead to the dismantling of the already toothless UN.

I think the parallels between Ukraine and Gaza, where in both there is an aggressive occupying more powerful military force that is violating international law highlight hypocrisy. Hypocrisy because while Russia is condemned and Ukraine aided, Israel is cheered on and aided.

Most wars are about geopolitical aims which are based on money/resources and power/strategic advantage. This observation is universal, so is not an “antisemitic trope” as one pp alleged because it applies to all wars, not just wars involving a Jewish majority state.

I do wish we could have progressed towards world peace, but it appears that since the 1990s, we have been sliding backwards very quickly. It is disheartening to know what a mess we are leaving for future generations.

This is an awful thing to converse about so I'm just going to say that they know the baby that died was shot. Her mother was there and was holding her when it happened. There aren't 'so many bodies' of babies missing heads. There is one body of one baby and she was shot. There are 7 Israelis missing with no knowledge of what happened, there is no indication that any of those 7 are babies. I'm done talking about this now because it's all horrific and speculation rather than sticking to what we actually know is grim.

@MushMonster - of course there are many different people involved, who have many different motivations. Even one single person is weighing up their action based on a number of different goals - not only security vs trust.

A politician is worried about his career, his legacy, whether his friends respect him.... in addition to having personal values and an opinion on what will work best for the country (which might be different from your opinion).

The Hamas leaders have all the same drivers...and additionally with fewer legal protections than in an established governments, by how much money they and their family can skim off (Arafat left hundreds of millions of dollars to his wife and daughter when he died).

Still not a conspiracy!

True, I don't think we can tell if throats were slit, unless I've missed something. The forensics team have been clear from the start that it's hard to tell why so many bodies were missing heads, as heads can come off for a number of reasons and when a body is badly burned you can't see the cut line to work out what happened. I suppose Jihadi terrorists are known for enjoying a bit of decapitation, so people might be putting 2 and 2 together to make 5.

On the other hand, I don't think it's reasonable to state conclusively at this stage that just one baby was killed.

If that were true then surely who ever is so concerned with facts would have reported the post that said 'babies throats were slit' and not mine which states the facts as we know it now? My post was accurate to what we know. There are 7 Israelis left unaccounted for and it is not known if they were taken hostage or killed and a similar number of 'foreigners'. No mention of any babies being unaccounted for and you would imagine after almost 3 months they would know who is unaccounted for. The rest are believed to be 'Hamas fighters'.

@Hellenika the 7th October was not a massacre. It was not a singular event, it is part of Hamas’s genocidal campaign against Jewish people. That they quite openly say will be repeated because of their published genocidal intent towards one group. Hamas are very open about the fact they want to wage a genocide against Jewish people. Let’s not minimise the suffering of Israelis or Palestinians.

I do like the prisoner's dilemma analogy. Trust indeed.
But... the root of the problem is deeper, isn't it? Why does the gang exist in the first place? Gangs are commonly created by individuals who make money on ilegal terms, gaining power by threatening communities into submission, forcing young people to do their dirty business and forcing police and even higher institutions into silence by either bribes or violence and serious threads.
It is in the interest of the gangs bosses to keep hate and distrust alive and burning. Otherwise, people would have the space to think and see the problem for what it is. And the distruss and hate would now turn to the big bosses, instead of keeping the little guys (who have absolutely zero value to the big guys) fighting each other (the two prisoners and the police).

Anyway OP, your thread kicked off a bit overnight. Happy Xmas. I think the hardest thing in life is coming to terms with the presence of suffering in the world. Maybe our best bet is to focus on being grateful for its absence from our own life, for as long as we are lucky enough to be healthy and safe.

@Mrsmulhern I think you're suggesting that in israel/Gaza there are outside interests (the US, the arms companies?) who want the conflict to continue, and are manipulating both sides. Other pp have also suggested this, and a lot of people certainly try to blame "oil interests" and "powerful players" without being really clear about exactly what the incentive is for anyone.

I tend to think the simplest explanation is most likely to be true, and the beauty of prisoner's dilemma is that it helps us to understand a whole class of problems where at first sight people seem to act against their own long-term interest, but they are actually behaving rationally in the absence of trust. And that you don't actually need malicious outside actors or conspiracies to get this behaviour. Everyone is just acting according to their rational judgement of what's best for them in the circumstances they are in.

There really are loads of real-life problems that fall into this class: from traffic gridlock in cities (it benefits you to be a bit cheeky at the lights to get through on amber, but you're making other cars wait just a little for you to get through... and if everyone does it there is gridlock) to climate change (no country contributes enough emissions to make a difference by themselves, and the extra tax money from allowing factories to run help them deal with the impact of climate change on themselves). It's obvious that it would be better if everyone behaved pro-socially, but everyone needs to, otherwise those who do behave well suffer disproportionately. And it's really hard to build that trust.

Although our natural inclination is to distrust politicians, all their summits and talks are an attempt to build an environment where people can rationally do the right long-term thing. (At least where it aligns with our national interest! But as prisoner dilemma shows us - often the common good actually does align with our interest. You do need to hold back the instinctive cynicism, but it's true)

It's especially hard in situations like Israel/Gaza when the consequence of trusting and then having that trust broken is extreme and irreversible. Ie armed attacks and 1000s of people you care about dead. Please don't jump from this statement to "but X did this, but Y did that". I'm not commenting here on what has been done by who. Just pointing out that for each individual making decisions, they're thinking about what their options are right now. And part of that thinking is weighing up the consequence if they trust and that trust fails. (which it has, time and time again - so you'd be a bit crazy not to give that quite a lot of weight)

Except that Israel has the capacity to bomb the fuck out of Gaza anywhere it chooses, yet after 3 months their sustained attacks have reduced the population by 1%. (I won't say "just" 1%, as it's clearly a lot of people!) This despite the fact that Gaza doesn't have an Iron Dome protecting the population, as Israel does, and despite the difficulties inherent in attacking an enemy that hides underground and uses human shields.

Hamas/Gazans have no such military capacity, yet just by nipping in for a few hours, with brief exposure to limited areas, they managed to achieve exponentially more.

Yet Israel is described as the aggressor? As responding indiscriminately and not proportionally? Apparently they are carpet bombing, with a view to wiping out Gazan civilians? This just doens't make any sense.

Not only did they not start this awful war, but if you insist on seeing it as "revenge" and want to argue about proportionality, then in response to the kibbutz attacks Israel could easily have retaliated by killing 80% of Gazans (1.6 million people) within a day. Why do you think they didn't?

I think your post was deleted because, as you say, facts do matter, and the article Hellenika shared states "An unknown number of bodies — in mid-November the number was around 100 — are still awaiting identification at the Shura pathological center near Tel Aviv, with difficulties in the process arising because of the state of the remains."

Stating with confidence that only one baby died is rather hasty, especially given that the smaller the body, the less material is likely to remain for analysis. I doubt the actual cause of death can ever be determined for most of these charred scraps.

Sorry OP but you’re wrong that Jewish people are brought up taught to hate people in Gaza. That’s not what Jewish people are like AT ALL. How many Jewish people or Israelis do you know and have spoken to about the Middle East and their thoughts on what is happening?

You also suggest the war is about power and money. I’m sure you didn’t intend it but it’s hard not to see your comments as anti semetic / prejudiced in the context of your reference to Israel, given the tropes about Jews loving money etc.

Your post is actually helpful in the sense that I think you aren’t alone - given the thousands chanting ‘ceasefire now’ but without being able to propose a solution to what Israel does about Hamas explicitly promising they will keep murdering Jewish people until Israel is gone. It helps me to understand why so many people are chanting and calling for something that would mean more murder and rape of Jews. It is then hard to not see the ceasefire now marches as implicitly endorsing October 7th, but your post helps remind me that many people clearly just cant join the dots and are responding more simply from their own discomfort at seeing the devastating scenes in Gaza rather than being able to propose any meaningful solution.

It’s easy to be virtuous and talk of peace from the comfort and privilege of safety.

I am a peaceful person and can’t ever imagine not being, but if it were my children raped and kidnapped, or my grandmother rounded up and shot, would I support force to protect the rest of my family? I have no doubt I would.

Now the question of how much force is proportionate to achieve that aim, and whether Israel meets that threshold, I don’t know…. And also the question about intentions, is it really about defending themselves or are they only interested in power / money?

but What do they gain from attacking Gaza? They’d already given over Gaza, with all their infrastructure; and were not occupying it. They didn’t want it? They were living in peace on October 6th remember…

And let’s not forget Hamas filmed themselves and broadcast what they did and say they intend to keep doing it, so no on can deny the threat to Israel is real and ongoing.

Hamas have never cared about the people who elected them. They’ve done nothing to implement proper infrastructure to ensure the well being of ‘their people’. They dug up pipes that were running water to Gaza and used them as missiles. They deliberately use children as human shields because they do not value life in the same way you do. They believe they are martyrs for their cause so do not struggle with their kids dying in the same way Israel does, or you would. In that context, what do you do when they make their stated aim to eradicate you? And rape and torture your people first ?

I suggest it’s only your privilege that allows you to fail to understand war.