WHY!!!

Sure, and that might be possible if both sides get on board. If Israel continues to occupy Palestinian land, allow settlers to steal land and terrorise Palestinians and if the blockade on Gaza continues as it has until now then that won't be possible.

I'm not apportioning all blame to the Palestinians, @Toothyfruity . I'm saying that they can choose a peaceful future.

Not the only reason but there is poor leadership all over the world. Even Western democracies seem unable to produce someone with the ability to put forward real well thought out solutions with smart and out of the box thinking The patriarchal religious dictator/leaders also totally unsuitable. But we the people either vote these people in or tolerate the intolerable. With the fall of communism and the Arab Spring I felt hopeful but something went wrong somewhere - probably a lot to do with greed and avarice. We are all oppressed apart from the French who really know how to protest. Be more French!

Well it's pointless talking about it if you apportion all blame to the Palestinians.

Getting rid of unwra and the bondage of permanent refugeeship would greatly help the Gazan's. All it does is enrich the corrupt and power hungry and shackle the poor and needy.

www.timesofisrael.com/israel-hoping-to-push-unrwa-out-of-gaza-post-war-report/

And the point I'm trying to make is that all that and more happened between Germany and the Allies before, during and after WW2. It was horrific! Seriously, read up about it.

And yet the Germans still chose to stop fighting, once they had been defeated. Their capability was destroyed too, of course - but they chose to rebuild for peace, not to pass on the hate and the burden of war to their children. My initial post was trying to understand how Germany managed that, in the hope that the Palestinians could do the same.

Palestinians still want vengeance, and think they can win militarily. So they don't stop. And that is such a loss and waste for everyone - and the biggest loss is to the Palestinians.

So the point I'm trying to make is that if you don't acknowledge Israel's part here there'll never be peace. Until Israel recognises that Palestine has a right to exist and stops occupying/stealing land/terrorising the population I can't see how any peace will be possible.

Your trauma is not turned to hate.

Just like Europe after WW1 and WW2 millions died, massive amount of trauma, yet Europe put aside hatred and revenge and moved forward rebuilding and all countries benefit

What a well thought out post.

Makes a change from the usual shouting and no solutions.

The 2 wars are obviously different. I think you're saying that you have a different opinion to me on who is the initial aggressor: Israel / Gaza / the wider Arab population in 1948. That's been gone over so many times that I'm not sure it's helpful to revisit. The start of WW1 was pretty murky too.

But it's perhaps worth considering the similarities. Gaza has been militarily defeated by Israel. There has been horrific violence and loss on both sides. There is a huge amount of trauma on both sides.

The problems in Israel/Gaza can seem insurmountable, but actually Europe overcame similar problems after WW2 and achieved lasting peace, so perhaps it is possible there too.

Eg, there was already generational trauma from WW1 (4% of the population of Germany and France killed in WW1, trauma in returned soldiers, social upheaval, loss of territory and destruction of the German economy due to war reparations). Then I don't think I need to detail the horrific violence, civilian loss and atrocities of WW2. There were terrible crimes on both sides: I can't imagine what social media would have made of the liberation of Berlin.

Infrastructure - and the ability to sustain the population - was shattered across the whole of Europe.

There was enormous animosity between the people too. A lot of Germans died of starvation within Germany in the aftermath of WW2, as aid was targetted to the Allies. And hundreds of thousands of Germans were killed in the surrounding countries after the end of WW2: either interned and allowed to starve, taken as slave labour and mistreated, or violently expelled from other countries and starved in the process.

Yet we were able to get past that within a generation. That's pretty incredible! So the question has to be: how?

Coming back to the Middle East, I observe that where there have been successes in gaining peace between Israel and its neighbouring states (Egypt and Jordan) it's always started with those countries recognising Israel's borders and ceasing their aggression.

The geography does make it harder for both Gaza and the West Bank. The land area is too small to fit meaningful demilitarized zones, and the West Bank almost cuts Israel in half.

But until Palestinians cease aggression, there can't be peace.

I don't think the Palestinians are the Nazis in this analogy.

I've described what I think was necessary for peace after WW2, @Toothyfruity When Germany had attacked its neighbours, and then been militarily defeated.

So instead of answering what Israel should do (which I don't know), let's consider what the Allies did after WW2.

I believe the Allies occupied Germany for 10 years, de-militarising it and removing remaining Nazi influence. The Allies prevented the reconstruction of German heavy industry for at least 5 years, and the US only gave funding and allowed Germany to rebuild when they belatedly realised that this would benefit Europe as a whole. Life was really appalling for Germans in the post-war years, with high mortality. Many Germans were also expelled from other European countries in horrific conditions.

5 years after the war (during which time Germany didn't attack anyone), they were permitted to create a sovereign state. They got more access to financial aid, and were permitted to rebuild industry. Another 5 years, and they started rejoining Europe diplomatically. By 1960 (just 15 years after the war), West Germany's economy was really successful, and in the current day (80 years after the war) Germany are economic and political leaders, strong allies in Europe. Certainly the US loans were necessary, but Germany built its own success within a peaceful Europe.

Now I'd hope that with what everyone learned after WW2 (and the destruction being far more limited) rebuilding Gaza's infrastructure and economy could take a much easier, less painful path than rebuilding Germany. But rebuilding trust would be just as hard.

I'm also pretty sure that if Germany had continued to attack its neighbours, Europe would still not be at peace.

@statsfun such an informative post with lots to think about. Thank you.

Interesting. Do you have an analysis on what Israel needs to do? Obviously any solution needs give and take on both sides but the occupying power would have to take the lead.

So sorry about your cousin @untitledmum. I think you're right that peace can only come from the Palestinians.

@MushMonster - what do you think encouraged your parents to let you kids grow up without hearing partisan stories? That does seem like the key to peace - and sadly seems completely counter to current Palestinian culture, which defines itself in opposition to Israel. Understand you not being keen to say which country, but can you explain what the causes of the war were and how it was resolved, as you understand it?

Having seen a mentioned in another thread, I've been trying to think about what made the difference between Germany after WW1 (when they felt injured national pride, and wanted revenge and historic territory back) and after WW2 (when they rebuilt in peace and became a powerful founding member of a unified Europe).

For Germany, it probably needed all of:
1.The complete destruction of the previous leadership and military capability

1. Acceptance that there was no going back to how things had been before WW1 (which probably came from how complete the WW2 defeat was, how much everything had changed, and accepting the autonomy of countries in their historic territory)
2. A national sense of culpability instead of victimhood
3. No remaining threat to the Allies.
4. Opportunity and money to rebuild - given by the US in order to build peace. This was only possible due to there being no remaining threat from Germany.
5. Some scaffolding from outside powers in governing the country in the immediate aftermath (although this did lead to its own problems..)
6. Inspirational leadership from within, a few years later
7. Huge economic growth: which partly came from peace, but was also just due to technical innovation and social change in the 20th century

For the Palestinisns, if they could genuinely reach (4), then I think all the rest could then follow: the Arab countries are finally stepping up to offer (6) and there has always been huge amounts of aid available for (5).

But I don't see how they reach (4) without (2) and at least a bit of (3).

And until Israel have security and acceptance from the Palestinians, I can't see either a 1-state or 2-state solution being possible. And the same will just continue, with everyone suffering.

@Hellenika that's the bit you focused on.

They weren’t saying trauma is why adults teach children hate, but trauma as a child is why they grow up to hate as adults.

I agree with the need to stop indoctrinating children into hate in their schools and home life, once this horror ends.
Not much we can do to relief what they have already lived, but to offer a proper chance to a peaceful future, for both sides.
By the way, having grown up in acountry that had to move forward very quickly from a dictatorship (and the vestiges of a civil war), we, the children, were not told anything about it at school, and almost nothing at home (bar stories about how they had to find and hide food) for years on. Only between teenage and adults years I really learnt what had happened. And I think it really worked to raise generations without that hate.

Mumsnet these are the first posts I've ever had deleted and even after reading the guidelines I'm not sure why? Can you tell me?

@untitledmum I am sorry you had to witness that. I think it's easy for people to pontificate about things when they have no shared real experience.

I've lived in Israel myself. I watched an Arab 15/16 year old teenaged boy stab an Israeli women with a baby, on a bus in Jerusalem.
A few months ago, cousin of mine was shot in the head by a Palestinian terrorist whilst waiting at a bus stop in Jerusalem. She was in her early 20's, newly married, pregnant with her first child.
I've ran to bomb shelters multiple times with only a few seconds until the rocket hits.
I have trauma. Yet I don't bring up my kids to hate others. I most definitely don't bring up my kids that killing others is commended.
Trauma is no excuse for hatred.

@MercanDede I've been to the Gazan/Israeli border myself. I have to correct you, at some sections there is a concrete wall, some there is metal security fence.

I agree fully with this paragraph:
"It is a cycle with no good end for both Israel and Gaza. It is why most of the world and experts familiar with de-escalating these kinds of conflicts have outlined the above and are advising a ceasefire and building peace through equality for Palestinians."

However you are wrong that this will bring peace. October 6th there was a ceasefire. (Yes, Israel would intermittently bomb Gaza to respond to the source of rocket fire from Hamas.) Hamas broke that ceasefire on October 7th and Israel, as any country would, has no intentions to stop the war until Hamas's infrastructure is truly eradicated.

In my opinion the only thing that will bring peace is when Palestinians are not indoctrinated to hate and taught that to kill Israeli's is to be a martyr, and there is an agreed upon 2 state solution. But first this hatred has to go.

A complete remodeling of the Gazans education and ideology

As admirable as that aim is, it’s not going to cause children to forget what they have lived through. They will not forget the trauma and terror of fleeing here and there while bombs dropped around them and nowhere is safe. They will not forget family members blown to bits or crushed by rubble. They will not forget the deliberate denial of food, water, power, communications and medicine causing even more friends and family to die.

So what is Israel's role in all this as Occupying Force? Eternal victim? Ridiculous.

Ignoring Israel's dreadful treatment of Palestinians in Gaza and the WB for decades is not helpful in any debate on the subject.

They aren’t fences, it’s a massive concrete wall. The blockade has strangled the Gazan economy, no amount of aid can change that, especially since most aid went to rebuilding everything that IDF repeatedly destroyed over the years.

Read the UN analyses please.

None of the aid went to any terror infrastructure either directly or indirectly as repeated audits have shown. Hamas funded their terrorism through illegal financing means.

Read the EU and US audits done on the humanitarian aid funds please.

There is a chicken and egg conundrum. Israel put in the blockade to protect against future terror attacks, which in turn then strangled the Gazan economy leading to a regression in quality of life for the younger generations, which in turn bred resentment and hate towards the Israeli occupation which assisted the recruitment of terrorist fighters which then results in terror attacks to which Israel responds by clamping down and destroying more of Gaza, which then breeds yet more resentment and drives more fresh recruits into the arms of Hamas.

It is a cycle with no good end for both Israel and Gaza. It is why most of the world and experts familiar with de-escalating these kinds of conflicts have outlined the above and are advising a ceasefire and building peace through equality for Palestinians.