Genuine question - why does the USA support Israel so strongly?

Stop saying things that I didn't say.

And you’re ok with Israel trying to wipe out the Palestinians, killing thousands and now many starving living in subhuman conditions?

I'm glad that the US support Israel. Without their support it would have been wiped out by terrorist groups surrounding them, there are quite a few terrorist groups in the surrounding countries.

Have you not heard what members of the Israeli government have said about wiping out Palestinians? Or the extremist settler groups who are murdering them with no consequences?

shockeditellyou
But on a thread about the USA's relationship with Israel, lots of "but what about..." starts to look like an attempt to shift the discussion away from the relationship between the USA and Israel.

A thread set up to explore why this conflict seems to have captured many people's attention would be a potentially very interesting thread. I suspect it's because the scale of the events in such a short time frame and quite a lot of people have previously not known very much about a complex decades-long conflict only to realise a fraction of what's been going on, plus people starting to ask questions of their own government over decades, plus some of the footage from Gaza, plus many people would typically hold democratic states to a higher standard than terrorists groups, plus the reporting of UN votes makes it a topic that interests people.

Unfortunately I suspect that a thread started to explore this interesting topic would likely turn into some posters trying to suggest that the only reason people care about this conflict is because they hate Israel, lots of mud slinging from people who are more interested in backing their side and point scoring, and a whole lot whataboutery or poor faith stirring. Which is a shame because it could be an interesting discussion about modern warfare and media reporting of modern warfare.

@LolaSmiles I am usually on the FWR threads nodding along when people say “it’s whataboutery” so I did think that it would happen on this thread. And I kind of see why, but I don’t think that a thread in the “Conflict in the Middle East” board is the wrong place for this kind of question.

I think it is the scale of the horrific violence combined with the time frame.

Why did it take the Hamas butchery against Israel for there to be sufficient traffic for MN to create a Middle East section?
It wasn't Hamas' butchery that created a section, it was and still is what the Israeli government said and did in response to it.
The world was blind to the plight of the Palestinians before 07/10, for multiple reasons, ignorance being probably the main one.

shockeditellyou
Nobody has to preface a discussion about one conflict of another with an extensive preface about endless other things to make their discussion acceptable.

It doesn't seem like good faith discussion to repeatedly see a discussion about Israel/Gaza and keep asking but why are you talking about this and not that, why are people not talking about this other country, but what about this government.

It wouldn't be good faith discussion to wade into a discussion about disability discrimination and start trying to derail asking why people aren't talking about age discrimination, or racism, of sex discrimination. They're all valid topics in their own right, but the discussion topic is disability discrimination.
It wouldn't be good faith discussion to see a discussion about male pattern violence towards women, and start saying "but men are victims of domestic violence too", "what about male victims of male violence", "but some women have done... So why aren't you talking about that". All interesting and valid topics, but hardly good faith to try to derail.

It's not good faith discussion to see a discussion about one topic and try to redirect the discussion onto some other whataboutery topic, which happens a lot on this topic.

Totally!

So they can fund and justify their weapons factories and also to stop the Middle East from becoming an Islamic superpower region of the world. IMO anyway.

@shockeditellyou it's the hypocrisy in one sense. The other countries generally get called out for this behaviour or sanctioned by our government/western governments
But Israel normally doesn't and the actions are normally defended

There was a piece on sky news today where experts said the bombing campaign in Gaza is one of the worst in history. Even compared with the bombing of allies on Germany. Yet the US still won't even call for a ceasefire.

Well the Pope has made his feelings clear. He stated that " Israel was using "terrorism" tactics in Gaza".

I know realunreal isn’t going to reply, but her previous reply still doesn’t answer my question. Yes, it is a comprehensive list of the atrocities. There is no question about that. My question is, why does violence by other actors not attract the same level of debate or condemnation? I don’t buy the “Israel claims to be a democracy, therefore should be held to higher standards” - that’s a free pass for shit countries

I suppose it is easy to say it’s all whataboutery. But I still think it’s a valid question to ask - why do we care more about this than that, when it’s all horrific violence?

shockeditellyou
This particular ongoing conflict didn't have it's own board until after the Hamas terror attack October and the subsequent war. It's hardly surprising that these events have been a talking point, just like there were different boards created during the pandemic to reflect what people were talking about.

FWIW I agree with you and think there's some very questionable decision-making on the global stage and international arms trades probably heavily influences foreign policy, just like I think some of the UK/USA's military campaigns have provided fuel for radicalisation to happen.

However people should be able to discuss an ongoing war that is in the news without being met with but you're not talking about this country, or that topic, or what about that government, but another country did something awful, why are you talking about this, and more whataboutery.

@shockeditellyou I've already explained my position. But as you don't appear to be able to read, I'll summarise:

• Human rights abuses ongoing for 75 years, many of which have been highlighted over the last few months which appall me - these have been in the spotlight so it is hardly news that they are being discussed
• This board is about Israel / Palestine, no surprises there
• Arms sales aside our govt is supporting this war
• One of the most destructive wars in history as per link above.
• More children died in the last couple of months than in ALL conflicts combined in many years prior
• Israel presents itself as a democratic and fair country but that comes at a cost to Palestinians. So why should we not question how they treat Palestinians? It goes without saying I support the human rights of both Israelis and Palestinians.
• This topic is big in the news right now, and one of the major things going on in the world at this moment. Hardly surprising there is a focus on it.

I won't answer again as I think you're veering into whataboutery and I shouldn't have to justify what I post about or my position here to you. To try to tell me my concern is misplaced is not on. Why are you not protesting about the other countries.

I won't answer you again.

They lost their control in Iran after the Shah wanted more of a say without American influence, obviously he eventually fled, the US were instrumental in replacing the Shah with the Ayatollah but look how that panned out for them. They lost a very important stronghold so allying further with Israel was their next step

It's to have an ally in the Middle East. Same as they caused the Cyprus occupation/split in the 70s - vitally important for US to have military bases in the Eastern Med!

It goes without saying that you don’t support Hamas, I don’t think anyone on here does, and that was not my point. My point was that many other countries in the ME have appauling human rights record and we don’t have threads on here on a regular basis about them. Pointing out this is a conversation about Palestine is exactly my point -no other ME conflict gets its own board, nor do we have dozens of threads about Myanmar, or the treatment of Uighurs, even when there are active campaigns of violence against these people.

The UK happily exports arms to Saudi and Qatar.

So again, why Israel?

No I'd prefer them to support a two state solution without giving Israel a blank cheque for complete destruction of Palestine.

I don't just blame America though. The Arab countries- apart from Qatar - have a lot to answer for.

Exactly, how you see all the complaints depends entirely on who you think has a right to the land.

Personally, I think a two state solution is the only workable answer. Everyone is going to have to compromise. No one is completely in the right and no one is going to get everything they want.

You should check out the UK sanctions list, most of those "Middle Eastern countries which are complete basket cases for human rights" are on it.

UK govt to Israeli govt - "we hope you win"

That article from Sky News is upsetting.

This stood out to me:

The offensive has wreaked more destruction than the razing of Aleppo between 2012 and 2016, Ukraine's Mariupol last year at the hands of Russia or, proportionally, the Allied bombing of Germany in the Second World War.

I sincerely hope the grown ups get back in the room and start focusing on the level of harm that's being done to civilians rather than which man gets to make a name for himself to his supporters, which if we're honest is what too many leaders focus on.

Oh sorry I forgot to add in my usual "I condemn Hamas". Of course I condemn them. That I choose not to do so in every single post does not mean I support them or any other ME countries that are "basket cases for human rights", or that I do not speak out against those other countries.

In case you hadn't realised this is a board discussing the Palestine/Israel issues. Hence discussing those issues on here. Hardly surprising.

And our government is supporting Israel in its current campaign, which I do not agree with. Our government is not supporting Iran et al.

And I am appalled at what I have read about how Israeli govt behaves to Palestinians via human rights organisations such as Amnesty, and how long it has been going on for. It is one of the major focuses in the news, on our social media and so on right now. So it is hardly surprising that people are angry about it.

And it is all going on RIGHT NOW amid a bloody and horrible war. Hence the current immediate focus. A war that has been deemed one of the most destructive in history:

According to experts war in Gaza is one of the most destructive in history
"Gaza is now a different colour from space. It's a different texture," Mr Scher said, who has worked to map destruction across several warzones.
The offensive has wreaked more destruction than the razing of Aleppo between 2012 and 2016, Ukraine's Mariupol last year at the hands of Russia or, proportionally, the Allied bombing of Germany in the Second World War.

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-gaza-latest-hamas-war-updates-sky-news-blog-12978800?postid=6959887#liveblog-body