Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

The anti-Semitism is coming from those who equate the Israeli population with their political leaders. It is anti-Semitic because like it or not, Israel is the only Jewish state in the world. Israel is the Jewish homeland. This doesn't mean that every Jewish person is Israeli or that every Jewish person supports the Israeli government.

Saying that Israel want Palestinians wiped off the map is anti-Semitic because it is conflating the people of Israel with its leaders. Similarly, if someone posted that Palestine wants Israelis wiped off the map, that would be anti-Palestinian rhetoric as Palestine is not Hamas (who are the political leaders in Gaza and should be held to the same standard as any other political leader).

I think this relies on people making assumptions about what someone means here and at times it stops the discussion being in good faith in my opinion. I also agree with you that the average Israeli citizen should not be blamed or held accountable for the actions of their government though.

In the context of discussing warfare, I'd no more consider someone discussing what Israel (as a political entity and government making a range of decisions about war and peace) is doing or trying to achieve a comment on what your average Israeli citizen believes or wants than I would consider someone discussing what 'Russia' has done in a discussion on the War in Ukraine is a comment that means "your average Russian citizen wants..."

In the spirit of discussion it is usually quite evident that someone saying "Russia is trying to..." or "Israel is trying to.." is referring to the country and the leaders, not average people so twisting someone saying "Russia is..." into claims of "you're saying the russian people are...' would be disingenuous to me.

Just like if someone commented about the UK creating a hostile environment to immigration on a thread about immigration policy changes, it would be unreasonable to accuse the poster of saying all British citizens are racist and hostile to immigrants. Referring to the actions of a country on the global stage by the name of the country is not unique to this conflict.

Good post.

I have found that whatever I say, and however balanced I try and make it, I sense microaggressions and mocking from certain posters automatically.
And heaven forbid you link to a Daily Mail article.

@stormy4319trevor

Also, prejudice towards Muslims is not really the driving factor in discrimination against Palestinians. we can see that Christians are suffering and being killed in Gaza and the West Bank too. Their oppression is more to do with them being Palestinian than their religion, it seems.

According to Wikipedia, the vast majority of the population of Palestine is 93% Muslim and 6% Christian. Israel is 73.6% Jewish, 18.1% Muslim, 1.9% Christian and 1.6% Druze.

Bearing the above figures in mind, when someone criticises Israel, they're anti semitic when they're not even mentioning or meaning Jewish people.
So why is it the same logic isn't applied and anyone supporting the genocide and mass killings of the Palestinian people not Islamaphobic? Because if someone wants Israel erased, then you're antisemitic but you're not Islamaphobic by wanting Palestine erased.

Sadly yes, certain posters definitely have form for this harassment and bullying style.

It might be nonsense to you, but in my opinion it is not. Pro-Palestinian posters including myself are constantly being called out on here by certain posters for expressing views about the ongoing bombardment in Gaza and the horrific violence in the occupied areas. We are constantly called anti-Semitic and also more subtly by implication. It is harassment and bullying and now what’s even more sinister, we are being reported to organisations and having files kept on us by certain posters.

So only Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, Paraguay, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, the United States and the European Union designate Hamas as a terrorist organization.
Mostly western countries. The rest of the world don’t. Make of that what you will.

What I make of it is to look critically at why some countries do not designate Hamas as a terrorist organisation and their rationale for that. So a country's wish to remain neutral, for example.

Also, several countries are considering changing their stance on "no" after Oct 7th.

I have had a look and I can't find a clear definition for it. If anyone else does know then I would be very grateful if you could share it on here. Thank you

@WibbleWobbleFlop thank you for that clear explanation
I saw posts that said 'palestinians hate Jewish people' and Palestinians want to exile all Jewish people from their land'
Now I wasn't happy to see that but I wouldn't know what to call it. So would it be considered anti-Palestinian rhetoric?

As I see it, anyone who criticises the Israeli government, the IDF, the people who fully support the ongoing bombardment of Gaza are all now constantly being called out as anti-Semitic. Anyone against them will have they mouths sewn up soon.

This is nonsense. Sure, there's may be a couple of particularly extreme and hawkish pro-Israeli posters who have done this, but by saying "anyone" who criticises the Govt, IDF, etc is tarred as an antisemite is absolute horseshit and manipulative. I personally have not seen anyone who criticised the Israeli Govt being labelled an antisemite, in response. It's just a repeated-slogan now, words that keep being put in our mouths for us. Because you know fine well the more you say that the more it sticks, and before you know we're being accused of "smearing" and actually it's us ourselves that's causing the antisemitism, which I still can't believe I've read on this thread. Just gross.

People generally aren't being called antisemites for standalone posts (although obviously there have been blatant hate-speech posts and I've called one out myself on this thread). But there's an evident pattern of extreme hostility, mocking and microaggressions from many posters towards Jews on MN, which is not just directed to the outspoken pro-Israeli posters, but also those of us who have a more moderate and balanced approach.

And yes, I've seen pro-terrorist posts, plenty of them, including the one I called-out upthread which was linked to the IRA and ANC, and is now deleted.

So only Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, Paraguay, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, the United States and the European Union designate Hamas as a terrorist organization.

Mostly western countries. The rest of the world don’t. Make of that what you will.

For the thought police on here, please don’t put this in my file, I copied it from wiki. These are not my words, I do not speak. 🙄

Thanks for posting that link @WibbleWobbleFlop

Nobody is taking issue with Netanyahu and the IDF being criticized. Nobody is saying that criticizing Netanyahu and the IDF is anti-Semitic. Those are both very valid things to discuss. Frankly, they both deserve the vitriol being flung at them.

The anti-Semitism is coming from those who equate the Israeli population with their political leaders. It is anti-Semitic because like it or not, Israel is the only Jewish state in the world. Israel is the Jewish homeland. This doesn't mean that every Jewish person is Israeli or that every Jewish person supports the Israeli government.

Saying that Israel want Palestinians wiped off the map is anti-Semitic because it is conflating the people of Israel with its leaders. Similarly, if someone posted that Palestine wants Israelis wiped off the map, that would be anti-Palestinian rhetoric as Palestine is not Hamas (who are the political leaders in Gaza and should be held to the same standard as any other political leader).

I will again link the definition of anti-Semitism as agreed by the European Commission.

https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/policies/justice-and-fundamental-rights/combatting-discrimination/racism-and-xenophobia/combating-antisemitism/definition-antisemitism_en

Calling Hamas "bad people" is clearly not signalling support or approval so now you are taking issue with the words people use to express their disapproval.

Please stop, this is getting ridiculous.

This is a predominantly female space and whilst some of us are seriously concerned about the actions of the Israeli government and the IDF I doubt anyone posting here thinks that Hamas would treat us any better.

True.

You don't think referring to Hamas as "bad people" and not terrorists fits that bill?

Yeah. Prevent are going to send the police to raid our houses and cart us all off to Guantanamo! Or maybe Butlins, dunno. For saying genocide is wrong and babies can't be terrorists!
That'll help improve Israel's image...

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the problem is that some of the anti-Semitic posts are not being deleted. I'm not talking about (heated) discussion or criticisms of Israel, I'm talking about posts that have- IMO- crossed the line into hate speech. Mumsnet don't seem to be dealing with this, so I feel I have no choice but to take my concerns elsewhere
I would agree with you on that, based on the premise that you're not talking about criticism of Israel/IDF. Some things have stood that probably shouldn't have. On other platforms I've also seen a lot of content on pro Palestinian posts that are hateful and I'm torn between being surprised or ashamed to see that it's been allowed to stand.

Equally, particularly early on in this board's creation there was a problem where some posters, a loud minority, were very keen to try to shut down discussion that wasn't hate speech.

On the whole I tend to start from the position where I assume posters are posting in good faith, even if they have views I disagree with. One thing I've observed on this board is that where posters have deeply held ideological allegiances to one side or the other, it's hard to see that the discussion is in good faith. It's more about shutting people with different views up.

Okay, thanks for explaining.
I'm happy to explain. I'm concerned about a huge lurch to the right in British politics that is toxic, and not just for Jewish people, but people from a range of ethnic groups, range of religions, a range of social groups and those people with disabilities. The Overton window is being deliberately shifted by people with a vested interest in perpetuating division and hate within society.

Wow, keeping a file ! Are you the secret police ? Are you trying to scare us into not speaking out ?

I haven’t seen any pro terrorist posts here.
Lots of anti terrorist ones.

Very good post.

As I see it, anyone who criticises the Israeli government, the IDF, the people who fully support the ongoing bombardment of Gaza are all now constantly being called out as anti-Semitic. Anyone against them will have they mouths sewn up soon. Now we have the secret speech police on here reporting posts to some organisation.

Why are others not allowed the freedom of speech to support the oppressed minorities in Palestine.

It’s not just Jewish people who are feeling threatened in the western world, Islamophobia has increased exactly the same and they feel threatened too.

Remember along with the CST there is also prevent. I have been keeping a file of the worst 'pro terrorism' posts. Like it or not Hamas are a terrorist organisation.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the problem is that some of the anti-Semitic posts are not being deleted. I'm not talking about (heated) discussion or criticisms of Israel, I'm talking about posts that have- IMO- crossed the line into hate speech. Mumsnet don't seem to be dealing with this, so I feel I have no choice but to take my concerns elsewhere.