Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

floodlightonwhatisright

I'd not doubt there's some support for Hamas within Palestine. Very few people would say otherwise.

The issue on this board is that some people are so ideologically wedded to their cause to the point they will put words in people's mouths, argue night is day/day is night, and get into huge amounts of whataboutery is a problem.

It starts to come across like deliberately moving the goal posts: you can talk about it, but not like that, or that, ok you've said A but I've decided what you actually mean is B so I'm going to criticise you for saying B. But you do really mean B. Now you've illustrated why you don't mean B let's find a tangential point to get drawn into

It's the endless bait and switch on these topics that is designed to hinder what is an entirely reasonable discussion about a country's foreign policy and war decisions and the actions of a terrorist group.

The opening paragraphs of the Reuters article linked on the previous page are pretty shocking to me:

Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found.
The Palestinian Center for Policy Survey and Research (PCPSR) findings were published as international alarm grows over the spiralling Palestinian civilian toll in the Israeli counter-offensive against Hamas, now in its third month

Thank you, I think you are right.I've read so much I can hardly remember where I've seen everything.

Some did and many still support them. That's why there has been no coup or uprising or revolution which tends to happen in times of deep dissatisfaction

Why is it that according to this thread Israel citizens can’t be held responsible for their governments actions (and indeed that would be antisemitic) but the Palestinians have to explain their lack of armed uprisings?

Because the Israeli government are apparently very unpopular but they haven’t had any coups.

Or are you going to roll out the old chestnut that Israel is making them support Hamas

Well the current conflict does appear to be increasing support for Hamas, yes.

I imagine it works the other way too. Probably there are people in Israel who are more hawkish now than they used to be.

LolaSmiles · Today 17:37

Not to me because today’s Palestinians did not functionally elect Hamas.

Some did and many still support them. That's why there has been no coup or uprising or revolution which tends to happen in times of deep dissatisfaction.

Really, so you think the Palestinians did not functionally elect Hamas?

Another post that tries to excuse Palestinians in voting in Hamas. Whilst they might not have had elections since, the Palestinians definitely voted and elected Hamas. It's irrelevant whether Palestinians knew or suspected Hamas might be a terrorist government at that time - the fact is that you stated they were not elected by the Palestinians!

It's this sort of stuff that is what causes problems on these sorts of threads.

What I post:
Hamas are a terrorist organisation who, despite being elected in 2006, have not held elections since and have openly said they have an issue with Jewish people beyond the current conflict. They don't get to hide or legitimise themselves as a state in my opinion. We either call them a terrorist organisation or we acknowledge them as a state the way we do when speaking about North Korea or other extreme and oppressive regimes.

Reply:
the fact is that you stated they were not elected by the Palestinians!

Post that Hamas were elected.
Get reply accusing you of denying they were elected.
🤦‍♀️

@FOJN think we are both referring to the Princetown study - bits of it were published in the Guardian too

@plusjamais brilliant....

@mollyfolk On this thread? You're right, I wouldn't call you antisemitic for saying that and I'm genuinely sorry that you were - you come across as someone posting in good faith and looking for constructive engagement (I'm pro-ceasefire FWIW).

However, if your post did not stand in isolation and you'd been incessantly blaming Israel for the current conflict and refusing to acknowledge Hamas' role in it, I'd think you have a bit of a problem with Jews. Similarly if you minimised the rape, torture and mutilation of Israeli women, and kept passive-aggressively shouting "alleged" before every mention of "rape" then I'd think you're a bit iffy. If you were calling Jews "genocide supporters" for simply trying to give facts or balanced perspective, or because they identify as a Zionist, I would think you were prejudiced against Jews. If you liked to use the word Zionist as a pejorative or as code for Jew, then I'd think you either have no idea whatsoever what a Zionist is (and so shouldn't be using the word anyway) or are an antisemite. If you tried to tell Jews what does and doesn't constitute antisemitism, told them "cries" of antisemitism bore you or are a "smear", I'd probably ask you if you'd speak to any other ethnic minority like that for calling out racism. If you were turning up to every thread going where there's an obvious Jewish presence to goad and derail, or followed Jewish women over to their own MN board to spy and harass, then yes, I would seriously avoid engaging with you, just like I have with many posters on MN recently, because I'd think you're a raging antisemite. Mocking Jews because they're admitting to being scared of antisemitism in this country, well, I have no words for that and I've seen it happen very frequently on these threads. I'd never dream of mocking a Muslim for being scared of the increased Islamophobia in Europe.

Sorry, I know you didn't want a rant @mollyfolk and I'm absolutely not accusing you of any of the above. Just trying to highlight how repetitive accusations, behaviours and microaggressions from some posters reveal patterns of hostility and hatred towards Jews, and to us are just as bad as the more explicit 'I hate Jews' variety of antisemitism. It's just a trope now when folks are constantly shouting 'criticism of the Israeli govt is not antisemitism' when for the most part Jews are not saying it is, and we're just tired of pointing out what actually is antisemitism.

Any kind of racism is a red line for me and I've always called it out towards other minority groups, so as someone Jewish the hatred towards us has hurt a lot.

My understanding is that the 2006 elections were for the whole of the occupied territories. There had been concerns about Fatah corruption for sometime and they were unpopular in Gaza.

Hamas was encouraged to run in the elections having not shown any interest previously in governing Gaza. They had a reputation for doing some good wrt to public services and we're perceived as being more honest than Fatah.

The elections were overseen by Jimmy Carter who reported that the elections had been fair. Hamas won a majority and then there are conflicting reports about what happened next which lead to violence and Hamas ultimately seizing power in Gaza and Fatah, there is plenty of blame apportioned to different groups. When Hamas won Hillary Clinton is reported to have remarked "we should have rigged the election".

There have been no elections since and given that the voting age in Gaza is 18 it means that no one under the age of 34 could have voted for Hamas. Someone who has the data, time and inclination crunched the numbers and calculated that a maximum of 14% of the Gaza population could have voted for Hamas.

Coincidentally just before the start of the war there was quite a comprehensive survey done in Gaza and views on Hamas were mixed, their popularity depended on which issue was being asked about. I thought it was published in the Times but can't be sure.

The reported increase in their popularity now is entirely predictable. There are many examples in history where "terror bombing" has been carried out to undermine civilian morale and it never works, no matter how awful the government it just tends to make civilian populations more determined to endure. The bombing of Dresden, Hamburg etc didn't make the Germans rise up and overthrow the Nazis, it actually increased their popularity and the resilience of the German people.

@floodlightonwhatisright but that was 17 years ago!! The majority of the voter population now aren't responsible for Hamas being in power.

Maybe this arguement being seen a lot on these threads is because it is a fact.

The rhetoric coming from the Israeli government and the actions of the IDF won't help.

There are a lot of conflicting opinions on the level of support for Hamas. Here is another view:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/

I'm doubting both figures @Molymoly because the ceasefire was 24th Nov to 1st Dec - so least a fortnight before the figures were published - and apart from the lack of bombing and more food for some, the population were still 90% displaced, with no regular access to electricity and still from the interviews I read in a highly distressed anxious state

A study from fairly neutral Princetown University the week before the 7/10 attack revealed a high level of dis-satisfaction with Hamas - 67% saying they didn't trust them and complaining about corruption wrt the distribution of food aid. And that was when life was okay

@Efacsen @Thereissomelight According to the Times of Israel the survey was taken largely during the recent truce. I was replying to the poster who said did i not think that most of the population supported Hamas. But it's less than 50%.

Plus I doubt they would have the cognitive ability at the moment to even answer a poll like that, when your traumatised, starving and in fear of your life how can you think rationally about anything. Would love to interrogate this poll, who was polled and what were there current circumstances

Who have no electricity to charge their phones. And are subject to regular total telecom blackouts

There’s that too. How do you reliably poll starving families moving from place to place and living on the streets?

I will try to explain it to you as I was responding to a poster saying that Palestine did not elect their own government. My response was to show that it did.

Reading the whole thread would be helpful before commenting - also, the argument that we have all seen so often on these threads is that there have not been elections since, the population is really young, etc, blah, but support is now 42 % for the current government Hamas and growing so come on! No excuses!

Or are you going to roll out the old chestnut that Israel is making them support Hamas!

I'd be interested to know how that data was gathered given the current situation in Gaza - and not exactly from an un-biased source

It’s quite simple.

Today’s Israeli citizens democratically voted for its government so we say “Israel”

Today’s Gaza citizens did not vote for Hamas as most of them weren’t of voting age or even alive when Hamas was last elected (indeed lots of pro-Israel posters here like to remind us that Israel is the only democracy in the ME) so we don’t say “Gaza” we say “Hamas”. It’s quite simple.

In current polls, support for Hamas has risen amongst Gazans because Israel has murdered thousands of Gazans and made 1.5 million of them homeless.
Also quite simple.

@OuiOuiKitty and I bet not 100% of those eligible to vote voted, so the actual % of voters would be low.

I didn't know that only 6% lived to over 55, that's shocking.

I would liken Palestine to Russia. Although Putin was elected in 2000 and supposedly has plenty of support in the polls, there is no way of knowing how much of this is due to government propaganda and suppression. Hamas was the elected governing body of Gaza but the electorate are disenfranchised in much the same way. We talk about the Russian/Ukrainian war, why not Palestine or perhaps more correctly Gaza/Israel rather than Hamas/Israel?