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Conflict in the Middle East

Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

661 replies

mollyfolk · 15/12/2023 23:33

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested?

it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views.

I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example.

I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

OP posts:
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16
Thereissomelight · 18/12/2023 23:36

@plusjamais and @Parkingt111
Thanks to both of you for the last few posts

Thereissomelight · 18/12/2023 23:34

plusjamais · 18/12/2023 22:19

@Parkingt111 Hope you don't mind if I answer this too although I'm also not Israeli. I do echo what @Opalfru1ty says.

I despise Netanyahu. I have always flinched at Israeli settler policy and the settler violence in the WB turns my stomach. I want the Palestinians there to be allowed to live in peace, and thrive, as I do for those in Gaza too, but that's clearly not going to happen for them anytime soon, sadly. I'm struggling over the current conflict because Oct 7 knocked the wind out my sails. It was grotesque and I can still barely compute what happened on that day. It has made feel more connected to Israeli people (despite having no family there), and actually more ready to identify as a Zionist. Because more than ever I see how much non-Israeli Jews 'need' Israel and how much Israelis need to be kept safe.

I have always supported a 2-state solution and I am pro-ceasefire, because I can barely get my head round what's happening to Gazan civilians. But I'm also aware that a ceasefire without a subsequent peace negotiation is potentially leaving Israel open to a horror show, possibly worse than 7/10.

However, I'm devastated at the antisemitism emerging in the West, especially the UK and France. And the antisemitic rhetoric and hatred on Mumsnet has horrified me. So to be quite frank - and I think this is might more directly answer your question - I refuse to have 'jolly fireside Mumsnet chats' with these posters about what a hawkish, right-wing warmonger I think Bibi is, even though I abhor him and his politics. And let's just say I'm not seeing the IDF acting in a manner that could be described wholly as self-defense. But again, I'm not going to turn up to threads and discuss this with people, many of whom I believe are demonstrably antisemitic. So despite having relatively strong views on this appalling conflict, I tend to stick to chats about antisemitism rather than the war itself per se and have hidden a lot of the M.E. threads now. Because there's too much 'my side is right, yours is wrong'. Which inevitably brings hateful rhetoric, propaganda and conspiracy theories, and not enough nuance for a highly complex conflict. So maybe that helps answer why you're not seeing more criticism from some posters about the way the war's being conducted?

I'll also add, if more posters engaged respectfully like you, I'd find the discussions more constructive.

Your 4th para is interesting to me because it’s exactly how I feel when people say “But do you condemn Hamas actions on Oct 7?” Of course I do but I resent the implication that I don’t and that I’m being forced to say it. A bit like driving to meet someone and being forced to state at their door that you drove carefully and wore your seatbelt before you’re allowed to enter their house.

So I take your point about not wanting to be forced to criticise Netanyahu
In public. But I suppose then people may jump to assume you support him - because there are definitely some very extreme Israeli viewpoints, eg the settlers - and they feel hostile towards you and then you perceive that as antisemitism and so on and so on. By “you” I mean a generic you, not necessarily you personally.

Someone else upthread mentioned that they resented being expected to take Israel’s side immediately after Oct 7th when both Hamas AND Netanyahu were clearly at fault. I definitely felt this too (even though I’m theoretically a neutral 3rd party) and I pushed back against it. I found it extremely upsetting to see terrified nameless children crying in rubble on social media and Al Jazeera while the Western governments seemed to focus exclusively on the life stories of the Oct 7 victims. Posts like yours help to reduce this feeling.

I think lately there seems to be be a swing towards the centre internationally - definitely more sympathy now towards the Palestinians (NOT Hamas). I feel very relieved at this and that in turn makes me more likely to be sympathetic to “the other side”. Also I feel that there is more recognition now that Netanyahu and the settlers are considered a problem by many Israelis and so hopefully that whole settler issue can eventually be addressed going forward in a way it never was before.

Parkingt111 · 18/12/2023 23:32

@plusjamais i was very very defensive then and I also used to get very wound up and bothered by alot but I have come more to accept that a random mumsnet users opinion isn't really going to change what is happening in Gaza so why let it disturb my peace

plusjamais · 18/12/2023 23:14

@Parkingt111 I do actually remember some of your angrier ones near the start of the conflict (I have changed username since then)😂

Parkingt111 · 18/12/2023 23:11

@stormy4319trevor thank you although i can assure you my DC will tell you otherwise 😂

I do get really really angry and upset by what I read and see on the news especially as there are people in Gaza I know that are personally affected so I'm not promising you won't come across some rants in the future and there's more than one poster who will tell you they have read some of my angrier posts in the past too 😬

stomachameleon · 18/12/2023 23:06

@EllaDisenchanted thank you for posting that. My family is under rocket fire regularly and I think it's hard to digest what life is like.

People are very selective about their history on here and how things actually came about. Things are not a one way street historically.

Most people I know are not fans of Netanyahu but now is not the right time and there are all parties in the war cabinet.

I also agree with the @Parkingt111 love. You are always respectful and listen. A good ear.

Thank you for all those that do take the time to listen and not should shout down, minimise, tell people how to think etc. it is appreciated.

Parkingt111 · 18/12/2023 23:03

@EllaDisenchanted I definitely agree to you regarding the media exposure. Also the propaganda on both sides is very very strong. So I have seen at times when there has been an attack or a video circulating on social media. Then if I look at the accounts that are sharing these videos with what is happening, it is almost two totally opposite explanations. So in some ways I can see how social media has played a huge part in shaping views in this war and which Is why I have tried my best to stick to MSM. But with the absence of independent journalists in Gaza, at times I do check social media as its difficult to know more without it.

Also, we don't really hear much about how it's like for Israelis still under attack in Israel so that probably doesn't help either. Your story about what your grandmother told you sounds extremely scary and I can see the fear of why many are scared that these actions may happen again especially after the recent attacks.

I was speaking to one person in real life who told me that although they feel bad about what has happened, they feel that a greater value is given to Israeli lives than Palestinian ones which is why they are not as vocal about what the Israelis have suffered. I'm definitely not saying this is right and we should have empathy for all regardless of who they are but just one thing that was said to me that left me thinking about for awhile.

I do think that in some way the many world leaders played a part in causing this divide by immediately picking a side straight away, which caused much resentment. But that's just my thoughts and I could be totally wrong.

Can I also say that you are honestly one of the nicest people i have come across on mumsnet 💗

plusjamais · 18/12/2023 22:55

@stormy4319trevor Agreed.

stormy4319trevor · 18/12/2023 22:50

I haven't really kept up with this thread but I'll agree that @Parkingt111 is always compassionate, measured and empathetic! It's rare and much appreciated by many of us.

plusjamais · 18/12/2023 22:48

@EllaDisenchanted someone who I feel really gets it is elicalebon on instagram. She is an Iranian activist who hears and shares both Palestinian and Israeli voices, and has a deep lived understanding of the Middle East and has some really nuanced views.

Yes, she's on Twitter too. I've found there's quite a few Iranian women with really interesting - especially feminist - perspectives on the conflict.

EllaDisenchanted · 18/12/2023 22:42

WibbleWobbleFlop · 18/12/2023 22:34

These are exactly my thoughts. Thank you for phrasing this in a manner that expressed my thoughts completely. It is very difficult to put into words.

I would like to echo that whenever I see a post by @Parkingt111 I feel like someone genuinely cares about all people in the conflict and beyond. I am so happy to engage with someone who has a clear opinion but is open to different ideas and happy to learn from others.

Agreed @WibbleWobbleFlop (re your second paragraph)

Parkingt111 · 18/12/2023 22:41

@plusjamais again thank you so much for answering. I'm sure you have seen from my many posts that I am very anti- Netanyahu and heavily criticise the IDF's actions in this war but I agree with most of what you have said so in essence we have very similar views but choose to express or not to express them for different reasons.
I think I mentioned it before that due to how intense this war has been it's difficult to discuss without it getting heated, but at the bare minimum it should not lead to any sort of anti-semitism or anti-Palestinian rhetoric or insults.

Most posters including myself at time come from a defensive stance, always on our tip toes for when the next attack will come.
So personally for me I feel that the Palestinians were more or less abandoned by the western powers especially at the start of the war. Which meant that if we the people didn't defend them then they would have no one and also for other personal reasons.

I'm very sorry for how you have been made to feel with the rise in anti-semitism and nobody should have to feel like that. And once again thank you for taking the time to answer

Toothyfruity · 18/12/2023 22:40

I think it makes perfect sense that some Palestinians would support Hamas after what's happened.

Gazans are being starved and bombed to death and literally no one is lifting a finger to stop it. So they support the group who claims to look after them or fight for them or whatever.

Those in the West Bank see how the PLO have gotten absolutely nowhere doing things the respectable peaceful way. Palestinians are worse off than ever so why play nice with the Israelis? When settlers attack Palestinians in the West Bank the PLO can't show up to the scene to intervene and the IDF is told to protect only the settlers. I heard a former IDF commander say this today on radio.

I'm not saying I agree with any of this but I don't understand why the thread seems horrified by the idea of it. Maybe it's because I come from somewhere where we've had a conflict and understand how local communities cling to terrorist groups who protect them (or say that they do anyway) when the occupying forces are mistreating them/killing them in the street etc.

plusjamais · 18/12/2023 22:38

@WibbleWobbleFlop ❤

EllaDisenchanted · 18/12/2023 22:37

@Parkingt111 I can give you my view if it helps?

One aspect is media exposure; what we see and hear is different than you will see and hear, and the people we believe and trust are different, so what one side takes to be truth will be different to what the other side see as truth. The ‘real truth’ probably lies somewhere in between. People are not going to condemn what they see as propaganda or fabrications on either side.

additionally, I don’t think people really appreciate how deep the trauma from October 7th goes, or that October 7th was not a one and done event. We’re still living under threat and have done for a long long time. Hamas have openly said October 7th is a dress rehearsal. we are still being attacked with rockets daily in some areas (less frequently in others, there was yet another terror attack today (shooting at a family, baby and dad unharmed, mum lightly injured), and there are still thousands and thousands of refugees displaced all over the country.
Hezbollah keep firing on the northern border (and people have been killed), even though I think there is diplomatic pressure on them to deescalate, there is a real fear it will explode into a second front of the war, the houthis are very busy attacking ships and down South, and we’re still grieving our dead, dealing with the horrific aftermath of the injuries, and picking up the pieces, and there is a huge amount of national trauma.
You can’t underestimate the shock and trauma from October 7th, and the effect it has had here. The country is still reeling, the hostages are not all back, and we face very real existential threats. It’s a horrific horrific situation, and I wish to Gd we were not at war, but there is a strong belief that if there is a ceasefire, Hamas will take that as a win, and start building up to repeat October 7th. They’ve said they will, and we believe them. I don’t believe either Palestine or Israel will be free until Hamas are removed.

There is also a lot of historical trauma. I am from the UK but one branch of my family actually originates from Tzfat, living there for many generations pre 1949. My great grandmother described to me the massacre in 1929, her house set on fire, they were hiding inside, smoked out of the house, she ran into her neighbours and saw them dead, they had been stabbed to death, escaped and while sheltering in the British police headquarters a policeman shot and killed one of the survivors. It’s like my grandparents stories are repeated over and over again, in every generation. The decades since the holocaust are the longest we have had in centuries without big progroms.

to add, re Netanyahu, the instability of a change in government would be disastrous. It’s a coalition government, there were months of protests this year against the government, and so many elections in the last few years as no one got a proper majority, and to go through that again would be so destabilising. So I get why people are not calling for Netanyahu to go when things are unstable enough (although actually, some inside Israel are, I’ve had ads on my phone).

someone who I feel really gets it is elicalebon on instagram. She is an Iranian activist who hears and shares both Palestinian and Israeli voices, and has a deep lived understanding of the Middle East and has some really nuanced views.

WibbleWobbleFlop · 18/12/2023 22:34

plusjamais · 18/12/2023 22:19

@Parkingt111 Hope you don't mind if I answer this too although I'm also not Israeli. I do echo what @Opalfru1ty says.

I despise Netanyahu. I have always flinched at Israeli settler policy and the settler violence in the WB turns my stomach. I want the Palestinians there to be allowed to live in peace, and thrive, as I do for those in Gaza too, but that's clearly not going to happen for them anytime soon, sadly. I'm struggling over the current conflict because Oct 7 knocked the wind out my sails. It was grotesque and I can still barely compute what happened on that day. It has made feel more connected to Israeli people (despite having no family there), and actually more ready to identify as a Zionist. Because more than ever I see how much non-Israeli Jews 'need' Israel and how much Israelis need to be kept safe.

I have always supported a 2-state solution and I am pro-ceasefire, because I can barely get my head round what's happening to Gazan civilians. But I'm also aware that a ceasefire without a subsequent peace negotiation is potentially leaving Israel open to a horror show, possibly worse than 7/10.

However, I'm devastated at the antisemitism emerging in the West, especially the UK and France. And the antisemitic rhetoric and hatred on Mumsnet has horrified me. So to be quite frank - and I think this is might more directly answer your question - I refuse to have 'jolly fireside Mumsnet chats' with these posters about what a hawkish, right-wing warmonger I think Bibi is, even though I abhor him and his politics. And let's just say I'm not seeing the IDF acting in a manner that could be described wholly as self-defense. But again, I'm not going to turn up to threads and discuss this with people, many of whom I believe are demonstrably antisemitic. So despite having relatively strong views on this appalling conflict, I tend to stick to chats about antisemitism rather than the war itself per se and have hidden a lot of the M.E. threads now. Because there's too much 'my side is right, yours is wrong'. Which inevitably brings hateful rhetoric, propaganda and conspiracy theories, and not enough nuance for a highly complex conflict. So maybe that helps answer why you're not seeing more criticism from some posters about the way the war's being conducted?

I'll also add, if more posters engaged respectfully like you, I'd find the discussions more constructive.

These are exactly my thoughts. Thank you for phrasing this in a manner that expressed my thoughts completely. It is very difficult to put into words.

I would like to echo that whenever I see a post by @Parkingt111 I feel like someone genuinely cares about all people in the conflict and beyond. I am so happy to engage with someone who has a clear opinion but is open to different ideas and happy to learn from others.

plusjamais · 18/12/2023 22:19

@Parkingt111 Hope you don't mind if I answer this too although I'm also not Israeli. I do echo what @Opalfru1ty says.

I despise Netanyahu. I have always flinched at Israeli settler policy and the settler violence in the WB turns my stomach. I want the Palestinians there to be allowed to live in peace, and thrive, as I do for those in Gaza too, but that's clearly not going to happen for them anytime soon, sadly. I'm struggling over the current conflict because Oct 7 knocked the wind out my sails. It was grotesque and I can still barely compute what happened on that day. It has made feel more connected to Israeli people (despite having no family there), and actually more ready to identify as a Zionist. Because more than ever I see how much non-Israeli Jews 'need' Israel and how much Israelis need to be kept safe.

I have always supported a 2-state solution and I am pro-ceasefire, because I can barely get my head round what's happening to Gazan civilians. But I'm also aware that a ceasefire without a subsequent peace negotiation is potentially leaving Israel open to a horror show, possibly worse than 7/10.

However, I'm devastated at the antisemitism emerging in the West, especially the UK and France. And the antisemitic rhetoric and hatred on Mumsnet has horrified me. So to be quite frank - and I think this is might more directly answer your question - I refuse to have 'jolly fireside Mumsnet chats' with these posters about what a hawkish, right-wing warmonger I think Bibi is, even though I abhor him and his politics. And let's just say I'm not seeing the IDF acting in a manner that could be described wholly as self-defense. But again, I'm not going to turn up to threads and discuss this with people, many of whom I believe are demonstrably antisemitic. So despite having relatively strong views on this appalling conflict, I tend to stick to chats about antisemitism rather than the war itself per se and have hidden a lot of the M.E. threads now. Because there's too much 'my side is right, yours is wrong'. Which inevitably brings hateful rhetoric, propaganda and conspiracy theories, and not enough nuance for a highly complex conflict. So maybe that helps answer why you're not seeing more criticism from some posters about the way the war's being conducted?

I'll also add, if more posters engaged respectfully like you, I'd find the discussions more constructive.

Parkingt111 · 18/12/2023 22:02

@Opalfru1ty thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and I know you said it goes without saying but I still do appreciate you saying that you hate the scenes coming out of Gaza.
Do you think if there wasn't some people questioning the need for a jewish homeland or for Israel's right to exist that your views would stay the same in regards to the government's response to the war?

Opalfru1ty · 18/12/2023 21:45

I'm not Israeli but my thoughts on this @Parkingt111 are:

I dislike Netanyahu and his politics (I am a Labour voter in the UK). I think some kind of peaceful solution is a long way off but will be easier if his party is no longer in government. I also believe any other country would have justifiably launched a similar attack on any terrorist group who had carried out a similar attack on their own soil and people.

I hate the scenes coming out of Gaza. It shouldn't be necessary to say this but I do. I also believe that the release of hostages the other week would not have been possible without the military action in Gaza.

7th Oct has shaken me to my core as a half Jewish person. It has changed everything for me. Prior to 7th Oct, I was fairly ambivalent about Israel. After the attacks of that day, and the antisemitism I have seen since then (no, I do not mean criticism of the Israeli government) I am more convinced than ever of the need for a Jewish homeland and of Israel's right to defend itself. I also believe that the long term solution is a 2-state one but that seems a distant dream (having seemed almost within touching distance in the 90s).

There is no simple right vs wrong, good vs evil in this. Anyone who thinks it is that easy is either an idiot or blinded by their own prejudice (on either side).

Parkingt111 · 18/12/2023 21:19

@floodlightonwhatisright I would like to clarify that ofcourse I know that there are Israelis and Jewish people outside of Israel with lots of different views and I am not trying to generalise. I tend to look at polls for a better picture but during the midst of the war its difficult to do so.

It's more specific for those who have expressed both views on here to criticise Netanyahu and want him more or less gone but support his actions in the war that i am finding difficult to understand the correlation

flowerssss · 18/12/2023 21:13

Parkingt111 · 18/12/2023 21:08

@floodlightonwhatisright this is a genuine question that I have asked before but I haven't really got an answer to but maybe you might. Although if you don't want to feel free to ignore.
Also if anybody else wants to answer I would be very interested in hearing your responses.

So on most of these threads I hear time and time again that many Israelis do not like/support/endorse Netanyahu and many of his policies and polls seem reflective of this too. However in regards to the tactics and actions in this war led by Netanyahu that has garnered almost world wide condemnation, I don't see much criticism for it and in fact alot said in defense.
Is it because you support the actions or see them as justified or is there any other reasons?

If my wording or question is out of turn then let me know and I will ask mumsnet to delete as it wasn't my intention

I'd be interested to know this too. I've seen a few posters ask similar but never really received an answer.

Parkingt111 · 18/12/2023 21:08

@floodlightonwhatisright this is a genuine question that I have asked before but I haven't really got an answer to but maybe you might. Although if you don't want to feel free to ignore.
Also if anybody else wants to answer I would be very interested in hearing your responses.

So on most of these threads I hear time and time again that many Israelis do not like/support/endorse Netanyahu and many of his policies and polls seem reflective of this too. However in regards to the tactics and actions in this war led by Netanyahu that has garnered almost world wide condemnation, I don't see much criticism for it and in fact alot said in defense.
Is it because you support the actions or see them as justified or is there any other reasons?

If my wording or question is out of turn then let me know and I will ask mumsnet to delete as it wasn't my intention

LolaSmiles · 18/12/2023 21:03

floodlightonwhatisright
That's an excellent article and it's disgusting that the writer was targeted in that way
I suspect we would differ in our views on the conflict, but I wholeheartedly support him in his stand against being harassed for the actions of an overseas government.

floodlightonwhatisright · 18/12/2023 20:58

stomachameleon · 18/12/2023 20:08

@plusjamais brilliant....

Plus one.

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