Page 20 | Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

mollyfolk · 2023-12-15T23:33:26+00:00

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested? it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views. I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example. I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

braticus · 16/12/2023 21:47

Zitagreb · 16/12/2023 21:40

Absolutely this. I'm just really surprised how many of my left wing "friends" on Facebook seem to blindingly support " free Palestine" and posting random "ceasefire now" posts. Why are people not calling on Hamas for a ceasefire? They are the instigators, they are the ones holding the hostages.....if they laid down their weapons there would be peace. Israel is just defending itself from the absolutely horrific attacks of October 7th. If they put down their weapons the attacks from Hamas will not stop and Israel will not be safe.

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Oh ffs.

Original poster

mollyfolk · 16/12/2023 21:47

TheLonelyStarbucksLovers · 16/12/2023 16:42

This resonates with me a lot. I’m Jewish and left wing, and the refusal or inability of left wing pro-Palestinian supporters to even consider how their actions and arguments impact on Jews has been really depressing. And how left wing support in any conflict for the perceived underdogs can hide a mass of complexities.

And yes - the deep certainty and knowledge of twenty year old ‘experts’ who have read a few Twitter feeds and seen some blurry unverified photos makes me roll my eyes. In particular their simplistic characterisation of Israeli society as a bunch of warmongers. I mentioned on one thread that it’s much more complicated than this, and cited the assassination of the left wing Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin in the 1990s by a right wing settler extremist. They had no idea who he was…

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What about more sophisticated criticism? From the UN? Leading human rights organisations like Amnesty and human rights watch and human rights organisations within Israel? Save the children, Trocaire, Doctors Without Borders, the Red Cross, reporters without borders? What off the more recent criticism from EU countries, even the US now ?

it’s a genuine question . I’m not trying to annoy you; my point of view isn’t coming from twitter.

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Original poster

mollyfolk · 16/12/2023 21:42

Scirocco · 16/12/2023 18:01

@LeaveBritneyAlone I don't personally live in Gaza at the moment. I have and had friends and colleagues there. Brave and kind people. Some who went there to perform life-saving surgeries, to help relief agencies, to visit family there. It's chance that I'm not there. I fear for my child here in the West, from the people supporting the genocide.

To many people, the blood of innocent people in Gaza is abstract, or just worth less than the blood of Israelis. But not to me. Not to my colleagues who happened to be out in Gaza at the time. Not to my friends trapped there.

I happen to think that indiscriminate bombing, shooting unarmed civilians, murder, flattening hospitals, etc should be considered wrong whoever is doing it. It's a sad state of affairs where that's not a more widely held view.

Absolutely. Should be always wrong. There is no justification for indiscriminate warfare.

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Zitagreb · 16/12/2023 21:40

Gettingcolder · 16/12/2023 20:44

What I have read on here hasn't changed my views but it has opened my eyes to how much misinformation and propaganda is spread on social media. I though Brexit was bad enough, but this is on another level.

I am a non-Jewish Zionist, old enough to remember the PLO hijackers and suicide bombers. Israel has spent its entire lifetime under constant fire in one form or another. Unfortunately currently I think any ideas of a two-state solution are fairyland.

To those that have compared this to the Irish situation, I can't agree. There was a huge local opposition to the IRA, they didn't rely wholly on the occupying British Army to fight the terrorists.

In Palestine, there doesn't appear to be any active or meaningful opposition to Hamas. To my limited knowledge, in every other country that has been occupied by a terrorist group, there has been a very active opposition from within (or at the very least from those exiled but living abroad). Why are there no dissenting voices in Palestine or amongst Palestinians abroad calling for the removal of Hamas? If Palestine wants peace, it needs leaders and a resistance movement to fight Hamas from within. The Palestinians themselves should be trying to overthrow Hamas and working with the Israelis, not against them. Why weren't the Palestinians asking the International community to help them fight the terrorists within? I can only assume it is because they hate Israel more than they hate Hamas so are passive accomplices.

Absolutely this. I'm just really surprised how many of my left wing "friends" on Facebook seem to blindingly support " free Palestine" and posting random "ceasefire now" posts. Why are people not calling on Hamas for a ceasefire? They are the instigators, they are the ones holding the hostages.....if they laid down their weapons there would be peace. Israel is just defending itself from the absolutely horrific attacks of October 7th. If they put down their weapons the attacks from Hamas will not stop and Israel will not be safe.

Original poster

mollyfolk · 16/12/2023 21:39

LeaveBritneyAlone · 16/12/2023 16:49

Correct - but did you read the last part of my post? I feel like you really haven’t

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At the end of the day it’s simply inhumane to kill, injure and starve children - any innocent civilian of course but with the children it’s truly the death of innocence itself. Whether that is the holocaust, the Hamas massacre or the current conflict in Gaza. There should be no justification for it.

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braticus · 16/12/2023 21:38

ChickHenLittle · 16/12/2023 21:19

To answer the thread title, no, I have always been pro-Palestine and always will be. If there is one positive thing to note at the moment, it's that I see and hear so, so many more people realising just how badly the Israeli government/IDF treat Palestinians, and much more protest and global outrage against Israel's actions.

Yes. I find it hard to believe that the posters claiming they used to be pro-Palestine but are now pro-Israel are being sincere.

There's no way you could be pro-Palestine and then see the suffering they've been going through for the past 2 months and all of a sudden empathise less with them.

Thereissomelight · 16/12/2023 21:25

ChickHenLittle · 16/12/2023 21:19

To answer the thread title, no, I have always been pro-Palestine and always will be. If there is one positive thing to note at the moment, it's that I see and hear so, so many more people realising just how badly the Israeli government/IDF treat Palestinians, and much more protest and global outrage against Israel's actions.

Yes indeed!

ChickHenLittle · 16/12/2023 21:19

To answer the thread title, no, I have always been pro-Palestine and always will be. If there is one positive thing to note at the moment, it's that I see and hear so, so many more people realising just how badly the Israeli government/IDF treat Palestinians, and much more protest and global outrage against Israel's actions.

ChickHenLittle · 16/12/2023 21:17

As I’ve said - there are 60 Muslim and Arab countries in the world.

You do know being Arab and/or Muslim doesn't make you simply feel at home in any majority Arab/Muslim country? My parents wouldn't comfortably call Jordan home because it borders their homeland, and neither would I. It isn't a reason to excuse displacing people.

Tufft · 16/12/2023 21:16

I have also seen a pp say that diaspora Jews should not have the right to Israeli citizenship as she can’t see that Jews are in danger elsewhere. This is mind-boggling to me given the last 100 years of history and again I understand why the Israelis think, ‘we cannot rely on anyone else, we have to make our own decisions to protect our people’.

Tufft · 16/12/2023 21:13

I have also realised how necessary the Jewish state is. The world will never protect Jews so they must protect themselves. People would call for a one-state solution with Jews as a minority, meaning they could never protect themselves again. I see why Israel has to have such an uncompromising mentality - in the old persecutions in Europe and the ME, Jews had no way to protect themselves. They had to flee or die. Now Israel has an army and they have to use it. No one else will help them.

Tufft · 16/12/2023 21:08

I have had my eyes opened to the victim-oppressor narrative that gets applied in so many areas of leftist politics, and how simplistically it gets applied (usually based on perceptions of ethnicity). So the Israelis are portrayed as white colonialists (ignoring the fact that most of them are middle-Eastern) and the Palestinians are powerless victims (ignoring the fact that they chose Hamas, mostly still support them and no credible opposition to Hamas has arisen). Imo it’s just re-branded reverse racism, removing all agency from the Palestinians. It reflects a collapse of faith in western values, particularly morality. There’s no morality anymore, only hierarchies of oppression. If you are at the bottom of the hierarchy anything you do can be justified by your oppression.

upinaballoon · 16/12/2023 21:01

MolkosTeenageAngst · 16/12/2023 17:20

From engaging on Mumsnet what’s really stood out to me is how much false propaganda and lies get swallowed by ordinary people who completely believe them. It’s made me distrustful of some of the obviously biased information being shared on both sides, seeing people state as fact things which have been discounted and fact-checked as false or dismiss reputable sources as spreading lies etc has made me realise how many people are just believing what they want to believe and what suits their side of the narrative. It’s been interesting to see people accuse one side of lying and giving false figures and distorting facts whilst completely believing everything that suits their side’s agenda. I don’t really know what to believe, I think the truth of what happened on October 7th and the truth of what has happened and continues to happen in Gaza since won’t really come out for decades and that makes it very difficult for me to choose a firm side.

Good post. Don't choose a firm side. No-one has to. Surely there are rights and wrongs on both sides. The best analysis will be on a Saturday morning on Radio 4 about 30 years from now.

Cantonet · 16/12/2023 20:46

Sorry Dr Ghassan.
Plastic surgeon who worked in Gaza for doctors without borders. Recently returned.

Gettingcolder · 16/12/2023 20:44

What I have read on here hasn't changed my views but it has opened my eyes to how much misinformation and propaganda is spread on social media. I though Brexit was bad enough, but this is on another level.

I am a non-Jewish Zionist, old enough to remember the PLO hijackers and suicide bombers. Israel has spent its entire lifetime under constant fire in one form or another. Unfortunately currently I think any ideas of a two-state solution are fairyland.

To those that have compared this to the Irish situation, I can't agree. There was a huge local opposition to the IRA, they didn't rely wholly on the occupying British Army to fight the terrorists.

In Palestine, there doesn't appear to be any active or meaningful opposition to Hamas. To my limited knowledge, in every other country that has been occupied by a terrorist group, there has been a very active opposition from within (or at the very least from those exiled but living abroad). Why are there no dissenting voices in Palestine or amongst Palestinians abroad calling for the removal of Hamas? If Palestine wants peace, it needs leaders and a resistance movement to fight Hamas from within. The Palestinians themselves should be trying to overthrow Hamas and working with the Israelis, not against them. Why weren't the Palestinians asking the International community to help them fight the terrorists within? I can only assume it is because they hate Israel more than they hate Hamas so are passive accomplices.

Cantonet · 16/12/2023 20:38

braticus · 16/12/2023 20:36

Anyone want to take a stab at defending the IDF for running over Palestinians sleeping outside of a hospital with a bulldozer?

I can't.
It sickens me to the core, but doesn't surprise me at all. Anyone following Dr Hassan on Instagram will be sadly familiar to this absolute cruelty.

braticus · 16/12/2023 20:36

Anyone want to take a stab at defending the IDF for running over Palestinians sleeping outside of a hospital with a bulldozer?

Cantonet · 16/12/2023 20:34

whattheactualfrog · 16/12/2023 20:19

How patronising. Jews were persecuted in Catholic countries for centuries. If we had the means to defend ourselves then as we do now, you wouldn’t like us either. We’re not seeking your moral approval. Those who are unmoved by the death, murder, rape, and torture of Jewish men, women, and children are certainly not people we look up to as our moral betters.

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What about the death, murder, rape & torture of the Palestinians since the 7th & before?
Or what about the persecution of the Palestinians over the last 75 years
Or perhaps being Jewish does your persecution trump all other persecutions?
Two wrongs do not make a right.
Incidentally Catholics were also persecuted in times gone by. Holding a grudge for generations leads to absolute strife & serves no good for anyone.

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 16/12/2023 20:25

I'm not sure why you and I've seen other posters say this - you cannot rock up to an Arab country just because you are Arab

Yeah it’s not like the European Union. You don’t get automatic citizenship.

whattheactualfrog · 16/12/2023 20:19

Cantonet · 16/12/2023 20:01

Not at all.
You're either pro-israeli or pro-palestinian ( labeled anti-semetic & pro-hamas) on here. In fact I'm shocked at the number of apparently so called 'professional' long standing posters on her who are happy to espouse their support for attacking Palestine. I'm absolutely perturbed at the lack of balance & rational argument by these particular members. I've grown up in a Jewish area with Jewish friends & parents who were real admirers of the way that Jewish families stuck together ( we're Catholics). I'm trying not to tar all Jews with the same brush. But I can't align the total lack of conscience by the Israeli government with the Jewish undividuals I know.

How patronising. Jews were persecuted in Catholic countries for centuries. If we had the means to defend ourselves then as we do now, you wouldn’t like us either. We’re not seeking your moral approval. Those who are unmoved by the death, murder, rape, and torture of Jewish men, women, and children are certainly not people we look up to as our moral betters.

Swishyfishy · 16/12/2023 20:16

I was horrified at the 7th October events, as were all my my family and friends. I have both Jewish and Palestinian friends but knew little of their history. I’ve read quite a lot in recent weeks and the behaviour of the IDF and settlers is horrific, I can’t believe anyone internationally could support them. It’s not just Hamas who are terrorists.

feralunderclass · 16/12/2023 20:11

LeaveBritneyAlone · 16/12/2023 17:09

I’m not sure why you’re talking shite, because I never said that? Y less you can point it out to me?

As I’ve said - there are 60 Muslim and Arab countries in the world. If it DID come to exile - who would be safest? The people with 60 countries to choose from or the people with 0 countries to choose from (who will inevitably end up in places that murdered their people not that long ago). If we are playing the ‘who is better to exile card’ (and I don’t want to play that card but you clearly have a side) I think anyone who doesn’t hate Jews would agree it’s safer that Jewish people aren’t forced into Holocaust 2.0.

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I'm not sure why you and I've seen other posters say this - you cannot rock up to an Arab country just because you are Arab. Palestinians ONLY have Palestine. There are a small percentage who have dual nationality, but the ones who were forced to leave are in exile, they have no right to return. This affects 12 million Palestinians around the world.
My mind has been changed Re a two state solution. Due to this conflict I've heard a lot of what the Israeli politicians and government have had to say and I've realized that they strategically placed settlements to PREVENT a two state solution. It should be one state, equality and fairness for all.
All minority groups should have the right to live in peace. You don't achieve that though by stealing the land of others, oppressing them and then crying crocodile tears that you are the victim. Right to return merely because you have Jewish ancestry two generations ago needs to end. We've seen the harm that settlers do. There isn't enough room for newcomers. The OPT will just get smaller and smaller until all the Palestinians are forced into exile. I'm enraged that someone can come from another country and be paid to move to Israel and then claim they have more right to it than the Palestinians. And I don't believe the narrative that Jewish people will all die out if they don't have Israel.

ChanelNo19EDT · 16/12/2023 20:10

No. Israel has to protect itself from a terrorist organisation that wants to DESTROY it and its people. What's worse that this is that that terrorist organisation is just interwoven with ordinary poor people.

cheshirecatssmile · 16/12/2023 20:09

@InvisibleDuck you have described exactly how I feel.

EasterIssland · 16/12/2023 20:01

OuiOuiKitty · 16/12/2023 19:37

It's really not true though. Funding settlers and defending settlers is not 'living in peace'. It may be for Israelis but it certainly isn't for Palestinians. Being under blockade is not living in peace again it may be for Israelis but it isn't for Palestinians. Having to go through checkpoints every day where Israeli soldiers humilate people and leave them waiting for hours on a whim is not living in peace, it may be for Israelis but it isn't for Palestinians. I could go on and on but the point is you are completely disregarding Palestinians, they haven't been left to live in peace, Israel have never left them to live in peace. So long as this isn't acknowledged peace is a long way away.

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Thank you. @OuiOuiKitty it reinforces my idea of second class citizens. Everything was fine before 7-10 because Israel citizens weren’t the ones being arrested , tortured , kicked out of their houses.