Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

@LolaSmiles it seems a far reality right now and I don't even know how it would happen. There are so many uncertainties and hurdles but the first step would be to acknowledge it atleast
That's how I feel too, but acknowledging it has to be a step. You can't break a cycle if people are invested in continuing the cycle and maintaining their side is the right one.

What good comes from people being so aligned to their cause that their knee jerk reaction to criticism or challenge is to deflect to the other side, engage in whataboutery, abandon good faith and charity in discussions or try to avoid the uncomfortable discussions altogether?

At the risk of getting completely flamed all over again, I think global powers need to be taking some responsibility for the current situation. There's been decades to sort this situation out peacefully and many attempts along the way, but when it's come within touching distance it's back to square one again.

And yes you are not alone in saying this.
In the last two days I have seen some of the strongest words by UK MP's.

This is from the former UK defence secretary
The Israeli government’s “killing rage” in Gaza poses a threat to the country’s moral and legal authority and will fuel the conflict for another 50 years
“Going after Hamas is legitimate; obliterating vast swathes of Gaza is not. Using proportionate force is legal, but collective punishment and forced movement of civilians is not.”

@LolaSmiles it seems a far reality right now and I don't even know how it would happen. There are so many uncertainties and hurdles but the first step would be to acknowledge it atleast.

Parkingt111
I've seen something similar shared and have exactly the same concerns.

The idea that in conflicts Country A flattening Region B would bring about peace is ludicrous and unless this is acknowledged and the endless cycle of trauma, harm, death, hatred is acknowledged then the cycle isn't going to stop.

Acknowledging this is going to feel uncomfortable especially for people who have strong feelings of loyalty to one side or the other, but if nobody is willing to feel uncomfortable and make moves to peace, there's just going to be generation after generation repeating what their side have told them and promoting hate towards the other side.

Average civilians are not going to be safe until that cycle is broken and the longer it goes on, the wider the consequences will be felt around the globe.

@whattheactualfrog Many thanks. I thought the frequency would have increased because of the war in Gaza, but from what you say it's the same level every day. A ceasefire is bilateral, but I don't know what means the UNSC has to enforce it.

@LolaSmiles I saw a video that was being shared on social media that just made me feel such despair at the situation and also the harsh reality.

I won't post the video but it is the aftermath of a airstrike. There is chaos and a young teenage boy covered in dust and blood is shouting. He is saying my mother and sister has become martyred and I don't complain. But let Netanyahu know that she leaves behind three sons who will come after him. He is shouting and holding back tears, full of rage. When I read concerns about a whole generation becoming radicalised, I remember that boy and how he would be such an easy target for those who are seeking to recruit and exploit.

The cycle needs to break. The Palestinians need their own state and they need a life worth living. So that other children like this boy, will realise that having the opportunity to make something of his life, is a better way to honour his mothers memory than a life seeking revenge

The rocket attacks on Israeli citizens are a constant.
And they are morally wrong too.

This is why there needs to be a proper move towards peace, with global leaders and organisations stepping up, because it isn't going to materialise from several more years or decades of this.

Err no. “Ceasefire” in reality only means Israel stops firing. The Gazans were firing rockets at Israeli cities about 15 minutes into the last ceasefire (the one for hostages to be released) so that’s how long they lasted at a ceasefire. October 6th and prior was also a ceasefire period throughout which Palestinians fired hundreds of rockets at Israel. On October 7th Gaza (with allies including Hezbollah in Lebanon) fired so many rockets they overpowered the Iron Dome. The rocket attacks on Israeli citizens are a constant.

stomachameleon
Thank you.

I think where people feel strongly for one side or another it can be very easy to assume that anyone with opposing views is somehow awful.

I've seen similar approaches posts from people I know who have aligned themselves with the Palestinian side, but have shown themselves to be quite foolish on my opinion with the content they share that goes beyond concern for Palestinian people. Their ignorance shows in some of what they share and they seem awfully keen to present any recognition of Jewish concerns as pro-IDF which is hugely wrong and problematic. It's a massive problem when people are more concerned with their side being right and avoiding challenge/deflecting to the awful actions of the other side than a good faith discussion.

Across a range of conflicts, I've often questioned the idea that an ideology can be bombed out of existence and that will make things peaceful. Just a quick look at recent history seems to suggest that such approaches breeds more fear, more hate, creates more trauma, and more minds ripe for radicalisation.
People are free to disagree with this point of view but it's not a position I hold on this conflict alone.

@LolaSmiles well at least you have acknowledged that.

@Desertrose2023 and I addressed that too.

I hope Mossad do carry out targeted assassination and I believe that's why Hamas has been asked/ told to move from Qatar to Algeria.

So I am going to spell out what the problem is.

Jewish people in the UK and globally are SCARED.
And your post is potentially FRIGHTENING to them.

I entirely understand why they would be scared.
The current conflict is frightening.
It's frightening is that there's a horrific terrorist organisation who hates Jewish people, regardless of their nationality.
It's frightening is that there's news reports recently saying that the terrorist organisation has planned to attack in Europe.

That doesn't mean people should not discuss the cycle of terror and violence that can perpetuate itself unless those with power do something to bring about peace for the welfare of ALL CIVILIANS.

So I am going to spell out what the problem is.

Jewish people in the UK and globally are SCARED.
And your post is potentially FRIGHTENING to them.

Plus you have CHANGED the wording of your post when you were "spelling it out " from" radical anti-semites" to "terrorists "which is very different again.

So are radical anti-semites terrorists?

Israel is famous for targeted assassinations. The Mossad has done them multiple times. If it really wanted to take out Hamas leadership and ability to rearm / funding it could do that. Instead it’s been propping them up for years to suit its purposes. As another poster said it could also have sought international support or some form of coalition for this action. It could also have complied with the laws of armed conflict.

What are your ideas? Or are you are supportive of the current way this campaign is being managed??

Is that the normal level of rocket fire, or is it greater because of the war in Gaza? I suppose if there is a ceasefire, the rockets should stop - in theory.

I am terrified! Did she clutch her pearls while she wrote this? Absolutely ridiculous.

It is word for word what you said.
No it isn't, which is why I've pasted what I actually put and will do again.

If the Israeli government want long term peace and safety for their citizens then flattening Gaza, displacing huge numbers of civilians whilst their supporters say 'but it's actually Hamas' fault ask them' isn't going to get lasting peace and it certainly isn't going to stop groups of radical antisemites wanting to harm Jewish people.

So I'll spell it out.

• If the goal is peace
• flattening Gaza and displacing civilians isn't going to get it
• and flattening Gaza isn't going to stop the groups of terrorists wanting to harm Jewish people

You can't bomb an ideology out of existence.
If you want to believe that's possible and that by magic when enough bombs are dropped then these radical terrorist groups will vanish then you're free to believe that.

Plus worse - you said Jewish people instead of Israelis
Yes, because last time I checked terrorist groups like Hamas had issue with the Jewish people beyond Israel and this conflict has far reaching consequences beyond Gaza and Israel.

Just a few days ago there were news reports of Hamas plans against Jewish people in Europe.

Or are we not allowed to acknowledge that Hamas and similar groups are antisemitic and have expressed hatred to Jewish people?Or are only certain posters allowed to say Hamas have far reaching antisemitic goals?

Some posters really don't seem to like people discussing that terror, military actions, and conflict tend to breed more terror and military action and conflict.

Israel is under rocket fire at the moment... remember this.

It is word for word what you said.

Plus worse - you said Jewish people instead of Israelis

@Weddingpuzzle
I think you’re right. And the fact that they never did this leads me to suspect that they hoped to clear Gaza and take it for themselves.

@LolaSmiles in all fairness you reposted and it's literally what you said.

@Weddingpuzzle thanks that's helpful. I disagree with some of it... how keen however outraged countries were to get involved? Same the other way. Arab countries may be vocal about the response but have yet to do a lot.

@headstone that's just deflecting. I am sure Netanyahu will go and the response to intelligence will be looked at. Israelis will demand that. Like demanding it doesn't happen again.

Doesn't seem to require 'clever people' to regularly tell Israel where they are going wrong but come up with no concrete alternatives.

Excuse me, but why would Israeli military action make radical antisemites want to harm Jewish people???

That's not what I said.

You, and other posters, do a very good job of taking what people say if they have a different perspective to you and twisting it.

What I said was:
If the Israeli government want long term peace and safety for their citizens then flattening Gaza, displacing huge numbers of civilians whilst their supporters say 'but it's actually Hamas' fault ask them' isn't going to get lasting peace and it certainly isn't going to stop groups of radical antisemites wanting to harm Jewish people

Very different to what you're claiming

But then on this thread it's possible to say Hamas were elected and be accused of denying they were elected. Some people are very wedded to their "side".

I don't believe (be it this conflict or others where extremist and terrorist ideologies are involved) that flattening civilian areas and mass military campaigns brings about lasting peace, nor do I believe it will reduce or remove the harmful ideologies. It creates more trauma, more terror and another generation ripe for radicalisation.

Stomachameleon clever people can come up with clever solutions. I think even on mumsnet there has been some suggestions. Firstly I would want to know why the warnings were ignored in the first place and why the initial response was so poor and what plans in place Netanyahu already had for Gaza. I would want to know all this first and then find away to make Israeli’s safer in a much more humane way.

I didn't have a fixed position in my mind. I think it has been an absolute mess and I still can't marry to a hypothesis/strong opinion. I wrote this on another thread but will paste it here re what Israel should have done:

I think the Israeli military and administration have shot themselves in the foot with their response. The long term damage to their reputation internationally is significant (if the Genocide convention is invoked they will be internationally rebuked by the world court and support from the US will fade). There is now a very strong narrative that the Israeli government and military lie, even MSM are pushing back on the politicians sent to give updates and questioning the authenticity of their answers. Their own citizens are less safe and this has also decreased the safety of Jews around the world.

The Israeli government, on October 8th should have gone to the international community and said taking out Hamas is non-negotiable to us now after yesterday- would anyone like to plan our response with us. We are willing for the international community to take control of this operation/do it themselves/try their way, we're open to it. If you fail we will revert to our way by X deadline, and lethally remove Hamas with force from Gaza which means we displace 2.2 million and there will be significant collateral damage in terms of civilian deaths.

A safer way for ALL civilians - Isreali civilains, Isreali hostages and Palestinian civilians to take out Hamas may have appeared via international effort. Who could call for a ceasefire then if it was an international effort?

Saying 'We are the only democracy in the ME/we have been attacked/we have a right to defend ourselves/we are superior in intelligence and weaponry', combined with conducting a very shoddy propaganda campaign, refusing to rudimentarily follow the rules of engagement, giving an example of that by shooting your own hostages and the very visible and graphic 20k plus deaths filling our screen out of Gaza (as a result of military action) has positioned Israel governments as the aggressor. That lies with the Israeli governments incompetence and lack of foresight and basic care for others that sets apart 'democracies' IMO. Hamas triggered this by the disgusting events of October 7th. The first thing DH and I said was 'This will leave the world in no doubt about why Hamas were deemed a terrorist organisation and shut up the fallacy that they can be negotiated with'. That has been utterly lost in the preceding 11 weeks. It's tragic and compromises the safety of so many.