Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

(It was Hamas fault apparently that Israel shot its own citizens. Hamas don’t wear uniform so that’s why the IDF is obliged to shoot every person it sees.)

Israel sets up in 1948 with a LOT of financial help from the US.

Illegally and violently extends its borders. Persecutes and murders Palestinians in their thousands (per UN stats)

Palestinians hate Israel. Traumatised and dispossessed groups form violent terrorist organisations. Several hundred innocent Israelis are brutally murdered.

Israel says “See we told you need to defend ourselves”

Israel murders thousands of innocent Palestinian children in a few weeks, destroys schools, hospitals and utilities, clears 1.5 million Palestinians from their homes. The world protests. World leaders everywhere demand a ceasefire, warning that a generation of trauma will lead to more terrorism.

”Antisemitism!” says Israel. “Pro-Hamas. Victim-blaming. See we told you we need to defend ourselves. This land is ours and we’re going to take it.”

Israel proceeds to go completely rogue, blatantly bulldozing and shooting random people for literally no reason at all, including its own citizens who were holding up white flags.

Am I missing anything?

Plusjamais what has been more shocking to me is so called feminists using the awful events of 7 October to justify the murder of more than ten times the amount of women and children in Gaza, truly shocking for a feminist board and no wonder non white dislike white feminism.

I see what you are saying and I hasten to add I'm in favour of a homeland for all groups at risk if persecution. The way Israel has gone about the homeland is nothing short of ethnic cleansing though. This has come straight out of the mouths of the government, and this is what has changed my mind of late. Something needs to be done about it, they need to be reined in (by who, I've no idea). It's got nothing to do with self determinination. It's a clear cut 'I want all the land and don't give a toss about who gets murdered/made homeless in the process'. The Palestinians are in dire need of a homeland right now. The Christians are at great risk of extinction. Israeli estate agents are already advertising plans for "homes on the beach" where "we've cleared the rubble and we're fending off the squatters". They are talking about Gaza, where there is a humanitarian crisis occurring. This hegemony which causes gross human rights violations needs to stop.
ETA: I've seen posters on this board say the Jewish people will be wiped out, and there are many videos online saying the same thing.

The wars Israel fought in 1948 and 1967 were instigated by their neighbours. So I don’t think it’s true that there would have been peace but for Israel’s subsequent actions.

You are setting up a straw man. No one is saying they are all going to die if there is no Israel. They are saying that there is a very real risk of persecution against which they won’t be able to defend themselves. History clearly tells us this is true. In addition many Jews, like other peoples, want to have national self-determination.

According to Dr Ghassan who was actually there at the hospital & treated the wounded afterwards. The injuries were not consistent with an accidental misfiring of a Hamas rocket. He believes the attack was caused by the Idf. He was also one of the first to see white phosphorus burns, when there was total denial of its usage by the Idf. He's provided evidence to Scotland Yard on these atrocities.
It will be interesting to see in the future whether this evidence will ever be used.
Or whether the total impunity will carry on into the future.

I agree, it's shocking isn't it.

Yes, and seeing so many self-identified feminists excuse, minimise, repeatedly shout 'allegedly' and outright deny the rape, torture, mutilation and execution of Israeli women has been eye-opening, to say the least.

When I started a thread on the babies killed in their incubators and mothers here started to justify it I knew I was dealing with a level of extremism I'd never encountered before.

I thought the same when I read posters justifying the unprovoked brutalities committed by Hamas against Israeli and other citizens on October 7.

Do you even know why the ‘Naqba’ was called the ‘Great Catastrophe’? I’ll give you a clue - who won the 1948 Arab-Israeli war and who started it?

Arab nations started it.

Israel won it.

Previous to that and at times subsequently Israel has supported a two-state solution.

@Toothyfruity
Yes, it’s very disturbing.

Mumsnet has not changed my opinion.

It has opened my eyes to the fact that a small number of people who support or at least justify genocide walk among us and that there is literally no atrocity the IDF can commit that would change their minds.

When I started a thread on the babies killed in their incubators and mothers here started to justify it I knew I was dealing with a level of extremism I'd never encountered before.

@whattheactualfrog

You should ask MN to delete your libellous posts, I will inform David in the morning

Yes please do ring David in the morning and tell him someone copied and pasted his rants onto a mums forum. Sure he'll be on the phone to the lawyers instantly!

In answer to the original post - no it hasn't changed my mind. I'm pro Palestinian and always will be. But that doesn't mean I hate Jewish people. I hate what Israel and the IDF are doing.

There used to be a time when being called anti semetic was an incredibly serious accusation and held weight. I have seen people throwing around the statement so easily on these boards that it no longer is and has been diluted.

On MN, views are completely entrenched, I doubt there is even one person who has changed their opinion of whose side they are on despite the hundreds of posts. It's just the same arguments over and over again.

Glad you mention the hospital. It was Hamas who blew it. Unlike the rest of the hospitals that have been confirmed to be destroyed by Israel and many killed by Israel whilst they were In the hospital

you might accept their apology… bless them they’re so young … if I was a familiar of the hostage I’d want them to pay for what they’ve done. They shouldn’t be in war if they’re not ready to protect the citizens.

Obviously.. what's your point?

I think her point was the IDF should maybe be held accountable for what it does. Shouldn’t be a problem if it’s done nothing wrong.

You should ask MN to delete your libellous posts, I will inform David in the morning

Have you read what he spouts on x ? This was on one of his posts….
I Am A Zionist -I Love Apartheid, Genocide, and the State-Sponsored Crime and Terrorism That Zionist Israel
Stands For.

in his eyes everyone in Gaza is Hamas.

This is grossly libellous

For the most part opinions will not change on either side and it appears to be very much an ideological debate rather than one where people are prepared to at least listen to the other side or one which is based on facts.

This is a worrying trend in Western democracies where counter arguments are met with insults and buzz words (fascist/ communist/ genocide / Nazis/ apartheid etc) with little or no educational knowledge on their true meaning and add nothing to the debate but simply harden views on both sides.

Counter facts are either met with denial or whataboutery. And the concept that if I shout louder than you then that must make me right which is quite infantile in a way.

This of course is applicable to most debates in the West such as "Just stop oil" or the trans debate.

In the case of this conflict it sadly all makes any rational debate impossible and a compromise or peaceful resolution ever more elusive, meaning that the inevitable outcome will be last man standing.

Obviously.. what's your point?

@miniegg3 shooting unarmed people waving white flags and similar situations has been widely reported in eye-witness accounts. The difference is that this time it turned out the lives the shooter(s) ended were lives their own country and leadership cared about. People in combat zones are often scared, and can have to make horrific choices in a split second. But the accounts of this suggest more to it than a split second reflex or reaction.

It's reported that unarmed, partly unclothed men (so no obvious weapons) came out of a building and were waving white cloth (so being obvious rather than stealthy and showing an internationally recognised symbol of peace/surrender/non-aggression). Those men were shot. It's reported that 2 were killed there, while one managed to get back to the building. The soldiers then heard a cry for help (in Hebrew). When the man came back out, he was shot and killed.

That's not a split second decision. That's not a reaction in fear.

In the eyes of the people defending the actions, the "mistake" seems to have been, not that three lives were taken, but that, as they saw it, the wrong three lives were taken. There wouldn't have been an issue if those three innocent men had been Palestinian or aid workers or doctors. Because that's been happening for a while now and they didn't care.

Those three men endured so much and should have been helped to safety, not killed. May they rest in peace.

And the IDF have had no hand whatsoever in the 20k deaths? Jaw dropping