Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

The general population does not have a significant say in the actions of elected officials. Platforms are often run with little relevance to the decisions made in government. In the case of Netanyahu, he was elected into power (during a ceasefire, where yes, Gazans were still very much being oppressed) without having promised to spearhead a genocide against Palestinians. Had he been vocal about that intention in the event of a terrorist attack by Hamas, I would be genuinely shocked if the majority of the right-wing voters in Israel elected him.

I do not blame Palestinians for the actions of Hamas. I do not blame Russians for the actions of Putin's government. I do not blame Americans for the actions of Trump's government or Biden's government. Why should Israelis be held to account?

Except that "Israel" is blamed repeatedly as if Israelis were in some way separate and distinct.
Just the usual bollocks trotted out by the ignorant.

@Opalfru1ty I agree with you wholeheartedly. Astounding.

Articles like this remind me of what is being faced...

apple.news/A5ysaZZFJQTib5T2Ep0evcg

And that frightened girl in back of the jeep.

I don't know why you think governments are elected for if not to represent their citizens and country. It sucks when your government does things that you don't agree with, look at the 100s of 1000s of people in the UK and the US who have taken to the streets to say 'not in my name' about their governments support of Israel, because whether people like them or not, agree with them or not governments do represent their citizens on the world stage. That's kind of the whole point of elected representatives.

I don't wish to downplay the seriousness of an increase in homophobic attacks in Dublin City centre. But I really don't see what it has to do with a well-funded terrorist organisation appearing on global TV channels and announcing their intention to kill an entire race of people (the very definition of genocide), days after killing - in the most brutal, sadistic manner - well over a thousand of them in a single day.

The fact that you would see an equivalence between the two is quite astounding to me.

And each of them horrific and wrong but it does not come close to a global conspiracy to wipe out Jewish people which is what some posters have suggested and what I was referring to. I acknowledged that anti semitism and a threat to Jewish people and isolated attacks are happening but not on the level some posters have suggested. Unfortunately we can pick any vulnerable group of people and find examples of attacks and discrimination against them, in Ireland for example there has been an increase in homophobic attacks in Dublin City centre in recent years, my point is Jewish people are not currently at risk of genocide. Hamas are a terrorist group and their attack in Israel is not representative of how the majority of people think about Jews and it was unequivocally condemned worldwide.

Then you are a part of creating hatred and division between nations. A country is not a direct representation of it's citizens.

@whattheactualfrog

Washington Post has confirmed white phosphorous being used, for a start.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/12/11/israel-us-white-phosphorus-lebanon/

Israel used U.S.-supplied white phosphorus munitions in an October attack in southern Lebanon that injured at least nine civilians in what a rights group says should be investigated as a war crime, according to a Washington Post analysis of shell fragments found in a small village.

A journalist working for The Post found remnants of three 155mm artillery rounds fired into Dheira, near the border of Israel, which incinerated at least four homes, residents said. The rounds eject felt wedges saturated with white phosphorus, which burns at high temperatures, producing billowing smoke that obscures troop movements as the substance falls haphazardly over a wide area. It can stick to skin, causing potentially fatal burns and respiratory damage, and its use near civilian areas is generally prohibited under international humanitarian law.

What I find so depressing is the double standards. Israel has conducted hundreds of forensic investigations. There are thousands of pieces of evidence bagged up, examined, and catalogued. Hours upon hours of video and audio footage of the attacks, screened to journalists from every major and domestic outlet. Footage captured both by the perpetrators, by ordinary civilians, and by the bodycams of IDF soldiers. Much of it was even livestreamed or posted to social media in real time. HOURS of it, collected, examined, run through facial recognition software, catalogued, archived. The best pathologists in the country have conducted hundreds of autopsies to reveal causes of death and what happened to the bodies before/after death. Hundreds of rape kits. Eye witness testimony. The testimony of captured enemy soldiers. Testimony of former hostages. Evidence uncovered in the tunnels and under the Al-Shifa hospital. It must be the biggest forensic operation in Israeli history. Some of the bodies which were burned took months to identify.

And yet, STILL you have people deny the extent and methods of the atrocity, and STILL claim “there is no proof”.

Yet on the Palestinian side, the accusation is the evidence. Dozens of people claiming to be victims of white phosphorus despite the fact nobody is using it on them, none of them are exhibiting signs of exposure, and in some of the viral footage… it’s not even white lol. I saw one video on social media claiming to be white phosphorus yet a bunch of Palestinians are actually approaching it and kicking it around lol, it’s not white, it’s not phosphorus, it’s clearly a smoke bomb and unless the IDF have very strong arms it wasn’t thrown by them! More seriously people are actually passing off footage of Assad’s crimes in Syria as Palestinians… of course the same people didn’t care about the people in the footage when they were first reported as Syrian.

The Tories are still in power after a decade in the UK. We just can't seem to get rid of them either. Same principle.

Presumably the reason the tories are in power is because people vote for them. Not sure what’s going on with the Israeli government but either they also have the majority vote or they’re somehow managing to stay in power with no majority.

Yes the country is responsible. Like I said I'm sure not all citizens agree but yes I would say the UK voted for Brexit. The US banned abortion. Israel are killing 10000s of people.

I don't know every Israeli citizen, so I don't know how much political knowledge they have. If they are anything like the citizens of the UK, they by and large have very little insight into politics. I would also argue that the Netanyahu government is corrupt.

When have a defended the IDF? I have openly stated that their actions are abhorrent and inexcusable. It is very important to remember, however, that they are not the only significant contributors to the deaths of Palestinians and Israelis in this conflict.

I'm sorry, what?! You are blaming an entire country's worth of people for the decisions of very few. Yes, Netanyahu was elected. So was Trump. So was Johnson. I do not hold citizens often with little political knowledge responsible for a government's actions post-election. The people of Israel by and large don't even support Netanyahu

So are you saying there are very few people in Israel with any political knowledge?

Seems more likely the governments corrupt if the majority don’t support them but they’re still in power.

The Tories are still in power after a decade in the UK. We just can't seem to get rid of them either. Same principle.

I was replying to a specific question about Jews feeling under threat. I didn't realise I was supposed to mention everyone else in the whole world who is currently suffering or feeling threatened.

20,000 people, mostly women and children, in Gaza dead, civilian infrastructure destroyed, over 400 IDF soldiers dead, 2000 disabled AND STILL rockets are being fired from Gaza.

What exactly has the IDF accomplished? If their objective was to destroy Hamas they are, as predicted, failing and yet the killing goes on with no end in sight.

So because Palestinians are suffering, Jewish people are totally safe? Whataboutery doesn't change the reality for Jewish people.

I'm sorry, what?! You are blaming an entire country's worth of people for the decisions of very few. Yes, Netanyahu was elected. So was Trump. So was Johnson. I do not hold citizens often with little political knowledge responsible for a government's actions post-election. The people of Israel by and large don't even support Netanyahu.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/poll-80-of-israelis-say-netanyahu-must-publicly-take-responsibility-for-oct-7-failures/

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/18/a-lot-of-discontent-netanyahu-alone-as-israel-turns-on-wartime-pm

Do you blame the entirety of the UK for our government sending refugees to Rwanda? Do you blame the entirety of the United States for making abortion a crime? Even people who voted for the right wing in all of these places take issue with these decisions.

Israel is not responsible. Those representing the people of Israel are responsible.

Shall we list the things Palestinians have gone through in the recent weeks?

child killed in USA
3 teenagers attacked
20k killed.
many thousand injured

In a nutshell 👏👏

I know I will get flamed for this post but you have to be realistic, Israel is going no where and Jewish people are not at risk of genocide

In recent weeks...

• Hamas committed the biggest single atrocity against Jews since the Holocaust
• there was an attempted attack by an antisemitic mob on an Israeli passenger flight landing in Russia
• a Jewish woman was stabbed in France and had antisemitic graffiti drawn on her front door
• a Jewish woman was attacked in London and left for dead, with CCTV footage capturing the attackers referencing her ethnicity
• The leaders of Hamas have appeared on numerous middle eastern TV channels reiterating their commitment to wiping out all Jews
• Bomb plots against Jewish people and sites have been uncovered in Germany and Denmark

That's off the top of my head. Truly a mystery why Jews feel under threat.

700 Israeli non-military civilians were killed on Oct 7. According to Israeli social security records.
The murder of 700 innocent people was appalling - many of them were peaceful people who had opposed Netanyahu’s appalling policies and had tried to reach out in friendship to the Palestinians. But it was not 2000. Let’s try to stick to the facts. There have been enough lies.

Nor have I changed my mind about how bigoted and ignorant so many posters are about Israel

Its not Israel as such more it’s government. They’re a bunch of right wing loons who support settlements and view the Palestinians as irrelevant.
Most pro Israelis know this BUT even so you MUSTN’T criticise Israel or you’re just a bigot.

I mean geez can they not just get rid of their lunatic government? They grumble that the Palestinians couldn’t fight off Hamas but Bibi going strong after a decade or more even though everyone hates him. Democracy!

I've changed my mind, because I believed that the US democrats and Biden were rational and would not actively back war crimes and indiscriminate bombing- especially after what they learned in Iraq.
I've also learned that a lot of people can't see that Zionism≠Jewish and anti Israeli views ≠ anti semitism. It's amazing that people can think this way. A religious or race based homeland is something deeply sinister and sounds to me so like "send them back where they came from" Alf Garnett racism.
It's also amazing to me that people will defend the endless violence as justified rather than just want it to stop.

The IDF disgust me now as much as the actions of Hamas that started this, but the defenders of continued violence seem just as happy to send the young soldiers of the IDF into a meat grinder where they are brutalised and their officers are being killed at disproportionate rate.