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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

What did Hamas think they would achieve through October 7?

178 replies

CroccyWoccy · 14/12/2023 09:17

I don’t normally post in this section so please forgive the potentially naive or badly phrased question (I don’t like the word ‘achieve’ but struggling to think of a better one.

Without wanting to get into whether any particular actions are justified or proportionate, it seems that it was entirely foreseeable that an attack such as the one that took place on Oct 7 would trigger an Israeli response on the scale we have seen.

With that in mind, I cannot understand Hamas’s motivation for planning such an attack, given the outcome of death and destruction with Gaza was inevitable? Or by trying to attribute some kind of rational strategy of cause and effect to Hamas, am I completely misunderstanding how they operate?

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Nelsonmandelaforever · 14/12/2023 18:51

CroccyWoccy · 14/12/2023 18:32

It seems to me you only can’t understand what Hamas wanted if you can’t understand the difference between Hamas and Palestinians and see the two words as entirely interchangeable.

I mean they're supposedly the governing body in Gaza, you'd normally expect the governing body to have some concern for the land and the people they are governing. Even if only because the land and the people are what supports the governing body's continuing existence.

Israli right wing government refused to engage with Hamas. Gaza is open air prison, cut off from everything. Do you think they wanted this life eternally? If all leading authorities cared most about their people and land then there would be no wars in this world, ever. This is not unique to Hamas or Palestinians. Sometimes leaders make difficult choices , maybe the long term goal is seen rather than the tragic journey to get there. Israel could have swapped the Palestinian prisoner's but Netanyahu made a tough choice too. He has done very well to bomb Gaza to destruction and kill palestinian civilans to create a fertile ground for future Hamas militants thus undermining Israeli peoples future security.

https://inkstickmedia.com/israel-rejected-peace-with-hamas-on-five-occasions/

Israel Rejected Peace with Hamas on Five Occasions

Israel wants the world to believe that Hamas has committed itself to terrorism since its founding, but that is simply not true.

https://inkstickmedia.com/israel-rejected-peace-with-hamas-on-five-occasions

MercanDede · 14/12/2023 18:51

CroccyWoccy · 14/12/2023 18:32

It seems to me you only can’t understand what Hamas wanted if you can’t understand the difference between Hamas and Palestinians and see the two words as entirely interchangeable.

I mean they're supposedly the governing body in Gaza, you'd normally expect the governing body to have some concern for the land and the people they are governing. Even if only because the land and the people are what supports the governing body's continuing existence.

Hamas aren’t really a governing body in the normal sense. They are more like a cartel drug boss sort of governing body of a prison.

MercanDede · 14/12/2023 18:48

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Yes, it is the other side of the coin that alleges that it was all a Hamas conspiracy to make Israel raze Gaza to the ground and massacre 10,000 children. Just like Israel didn’t make Hamas do Oct 7th, neither did Hamas make Israel do Oct 7th to the present.

MercanDede · 14/12/2023 18:44

stomachameleon · 14/12/2023 17:59

It’s baffling you because the reality was that it was not foreseeable or inevitable that the Oct 7th terror attack by Hamas would lead to Israel’s response. @MercanDede

I am sorry but that's laughable. They knew exactly what would happen. They just never thought everyone would leave them to it eg Iran.

So Hamas knew exactly what Israel would do, better than Israel itself but their omniscience or crystal ball did not extend to Iran? Um ok.

I think you are putting Hamas on some sort of evil genius word dominator pedestal while demoting Israel to manipulated mug status. It’s your view that is the laughable one when you consider how the asymmetry in technology, resources, contacts and so on are heavily weighted in Israel’s favour.

notimagain · 14/12/2023 18:44

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tealightfire · 14/12/2023 18:38

Apart from filming sets created by idf to spread their bs narrative re shooting scenes to make it more believable as Palestinians are quite bad at acting but who can blame them as they are civilians. hummus was here, hummus was there. Look hummus hid there that's why we bombed the fuck out of the hospitals and schools.

Thereissomelight · 14/12/2023 18:35

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Well for starters they are quite right that thousands and thousands of people have been killed.

Thereissomelight · 14/12/2023 18:34

SomeCatFromJapan · 14/12/2023 18:09

Do you think a normal human being will take this lying down and" build bridges" with their oppressor?

You sound like you are justifying the October 7 attacks?

Should Israel have taken October 7th lying down? Or do you think their response is justified?

MercanDede · 14/12/2023 18:32

Bells3032 · 14/12/2023 16:57

oh and let's add that weapons and Hamas terrorists have been found hiding in UN schools and hospitals. and one of the hostages was even kept in a UN workers HOUSE.

I have seen no authenticated evidence of this.

Original poster
CroccyWoccy · 14/12/2023 18:32

It seems to me you only can’t understand what Hamas wanted if you can’t understand the difference between Hamas and Palestinians and see the two words as entirely interchangeable.

I mean they're supposedly the governing body in Gaza, you'd normally expect the governing body to have some concern for the land and the people they are governing. Even if only because the land and the people are what supports the governing body's continuing existence.

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MercanDede · 14/12/2023 18:31

stomachameleon · 14/12/2023 16:09

@Bells3032 constant condemnation. No wonder Israel don't take them seriously.

The disparity is because other countries listen because they don’t have a back with veto power so the UN only needs to tell them once.

Israel ignores the UNGA because it knows the US will veto any UNSC resolution to take any actions, so it’s just words. The UNGA is stuck repeating itself like a broken record hoping Israel might listen or the US might stop allowing Israel to break international law with no consequences.

SomeCatFromJapan · 14/12/2023 18:27

Yawn. I am talking about palestinians resistance to israeli oppression.

Would you consider 7 October to fall into that category, presuming that doesn't make you fall asleep entirely?

Nelsonmandelaforever · 14/12/2023 18:19

SomeCatFromJapan · 14/12/2023 18:09

Do you think a normal human being will take this lying down and" build bridges" with their oppressor?

You sound like you are justifying the October 7 attacks?

Yawn. I am talking about palestinians resistance to israeli oppression. No human being would accept this forever. People fight back. I have no idea why Hamas committed atrocities on israeli civilians. I can't read their mind. And I don't agree. But let's not forget decade's of Killings by Israel. I pray the hostages are freed .

MercanDede · 14/12/2023 18:19

notthisagaindear · 14/12/2023 12:30

No. Their actions long term have shown that they don't really care about the people of Palestine.

I think your mistake it to think of Hamas a rational players with a realistic, pragmatic political goal they are trying to achieve.

And surely the barbarity of Oct 7th showed you that was not the case. They are motivated by ideology and emotion, not political pragmatism.

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The 1,147 massacred by Hamas were around 800 civilians, the rest were IDF soldiers. If they lack all rational thought, and are motivated by ideology and emotion only, then what does that say about Israel who has killed over 18,000 civilians and an estimated 3,000 Hamas terrorists? If one day of massacre is “barbarity” then what do you call sixty-eight days in a row of massacres?

Impersonal massacring is not any less barbaric than personal massacring my opinion.

SomeCatFromJapan · 14/12/2023 18:12

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Dontsayanything · 14/12/2023 18:10

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Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SomeCatFromJapan · 14/12/2023 18:09

Do you think a normal human being will take this lying down and" build bridges" with their oppressor?

You sound like you are justifying the October 7 attacks?

Nelsonmandelaforever · 14/12/2023 18:08

MushMonster · 14/12/2023 17:50

Kill a hell lot of people, on both sides of the border (well, actually, more on their "own" side, as it is so heavily populated).
Desestabilize the area, infurate everyone, waste resources and general trouble making, for a long long long term.
They could spend their time building bridges with the neighbours, sorting infraestructure in the area, moving forward towards peace. But that is not in their agenda.

What fairy tale thinking is this? The neighbours are the most right wing Israeli government, who have illegally settled israeli settlers in illegally occupied territories and hate palestinians. Israel has violated 28 UN resolutions. Do you think a normal human being will take this lying down and" build bridges" with their oppressor? You call it troublmaking " from the comfort of your armchair and in denial of the oppression by israel. Historical records as well as genetic studies indicate that modern Palestinians mostly descend from local ancient levantines who converted from judaism and other levantine mythologies to christianity and later to islam. So European Israelis are killing the original Jews indigenous to the region.

stomachameleon · 14/12/2023 18:03

@braticus I don't know why they need an independent investigation from the un who took three weeks to address the massacre. Luckily there is Hamas' own video footage to rely on

The fact you 'suggest' anything about the rape and torture of men and women says a lot about you. Or some men and women.

SomeCatFromJapan · 14/12/2023 18:02

It’s baffling you because the reality was that it was not foreseeable or inevitable that the Oct 7th terror attack by Hamas would lead to Israel’s response. The narrative that Hamas knew with any certainty the full scale and ferocity of Israel’s retaliation before and better than Israel itself knew is an apologia for Israel’s war crimes.

After 2014, which kicked off over way less, it should have been abundantly clear. Hamas leadership is many things but presumably they are not stupid.

stomachameleon · 14/12/2023 17:59

It’s baffling you because the reality was that it was not foreseeable or inevitable that the Oct 7th terror attack by Hamas would lead to Israel’s response. @MercanDede

I am sorry but that's laughable. They knew exactly what would happen. They just never thought everyone would leave them to it eg Iran.

Parkingt111 · 14/12/2023 17:58

Bigminnie1 · 14/12/2023 17:54

@TakeMe2Insanity what lies are you spreading now? The IDF have never used children as human shields.

Well it got so bad that a court ruled it as illegal for Israel to continue doing so in 2005 however there has been reports since then that it is still in practice

Bigminnie1 · 14/12/2023 17:57

braticus · 14/12/2023 15:14

It also speaks volumes that Israel is refusing to allow an independent investigation into what happened on October 7th. What are they hiding?

What are you insinuating now? You obviously don't believe the horrors of October 7th despite the overwhelming evidence and reports plus the actual filming by Hamas.