Conflict Israel and other nearby countries

Calling me ignorant. Im not replying to such provocation but its very hard.

Another way of putting it is, you do not get rid of extremists by behaving in similar ways to them.

You are quoting selectively in order to misinterpret. Israel has free and fair elections, so has recently chosen its extremists. Palestinians have not recently had any agency over their leadership, yet the rhetoric and actions of Israel’s leadership demonstrate a general opinion that there is little real difference between Hamas and the Palestinian population in general and little concern about the fact so much “collateral damage” is the young and vulnerable. Even if Hamas were helping get civilians to safety, there would be an appalling level of death as a result of Israeli bombing. It is just not proportionate that tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians should be mutilated or killed because a far smaller number of Israelis were murdered, raped and tortured. However appalling the attacks on Israel, the retribution is now worse and is not keeping Israel safe from future atrocities, imvho.

That is true. I guess my response is, I wouldn’t have started here, as Israel was in trouble from the minute Netenyahu formed his coalition government, hence my comments about Trump and Johnson - what a disaster if such people are in power when something like this happens.

As there are currently extremists in control of both Israel and Gaza, this is a problem with global ramifications in which no country can take any moral high ground while so many people are being blown up. It might just be, given the unfortunate leadership situation in Israel, that truly getting rid of Hamas is not now even possible, because Israel cannot afford for the entire world to turn against it, and the world doesn’t trust anything that Netenyahu says or does. We need to hear something from Israel that indicates what it thinks it is really achieving and what it really plans to do next.

Yes Israels PR system has long been held up as a factor in its political instability. Too much democracy is not always a good thing! Ironically it encourages fracturing the debate rather than encouraging unified national purpose which is what you need when faced with a constant existential crisis. The article is also a reminder to those who dont really follow this subject that terror attacks and missile strikes have been a longstanding issue for Israel.

Some posters may not know that Israel’s electoral system is sometimes used as an example of the problems proportional representation can throw up. A quick Google gave me this April article from Canada https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/opinion/article-is-israels-democratic-crisis-proof-that-proportional-representation/

It’s interesting that in the first paragraph the author mentions attacks on the Israeli border and fears about weakened security due to the internal problems.

In recent days, Israelis have been shaken up by terror attacks and missile strikes from Gaza, Syria and Lebanon

Interesting, but not the answer to my question.

You said 'There have been no elections in Gaza for a very long time. This certainly has an effect on my opinion of Israel...' The implication of that following your statements about America and Britain was that the lack of elections in Gaza was Israel's responsibility as you don't say that Hamas's failure to hold elections in Gaza makes you think less of them. I'm not sure how else we were supposed to read your statement?

I certainly did not say that the lack of elections in Gaza was the fault of the palestinian population. Its clearly the fault of Hamas who are in charge. The lack of agency of ordinary palestinians is the result of being run by a murderous dictatorship that punishes dissent, including 'executions' of people they consider collaborators & think nothing of killing their own people in failed rocket attacks on Israel. I think it would be good if palestinians recovered their agency & overthrew Hamas but that must be difficult and there are indications that Hamas still have quite widespread support. Without proper free & fair elections its quite hard to know.There appears to be some resistance at the moment. Palestinians are certainly trapped in a terrible situation.

About 20,000 Israelis marched on Tel Aviv this July to protest the government’s planned changes to to judicial system. The opposition to the changes was quite a big international news story. Can you provide some backing for your statement that Israelis are afraid to speak out against their government?

You write that the Israeli government is to blame for increased antisemitism around the world. Did you mean to make such a breathtakingly antisemitic statement, or is it that you are a lot more ignorant about history, geography and politics than you pretend? Or perhaps both?

This sums up Israel’s problem. It had to react strongly, but with such corrupt leadership it’s hard to believe the scale of its reaction is legitimate. Even the US thinks it is excessive and indiscriminate. Add to this the fact nobody has the faintest idea what Israel is expecting it will really achieve from its current actions, other than mass slaughter. I just don’t see it successfully getting rid of Hamas and that resulting in peace and harmony. It is far more likely it will bolster and unite other terrorist organisations.

*By that, I mean, the leadership of Israel is something Israelis have a choice over.

Who say the lack of elections in Gaza is Israels’s fault? I certainly don’t. It is a fact, though, that the current population of Israel had a lot more agency over its leadership than the current population of Gaza. You can’t blame the majority of the population of Gaza for an election that took place before they were born or were old enough to vote.

What a ridiculous comment that the lack of elections is the fault of Palestinians.

Could I ask what you think Israel should have done following a long-planned attack which saw 1200 civilians tortured, raped, mutilated & murdered and more taken hostage? We know Hamas has the backing of Iran & Israel has constantly been attacked by Hezbollah also. Given how unsafe Israel is with so many of its neighbours wanting to destroy it how should it have responded to the Hamas attack?

And I distrust anyone who thinks the lack of elections in Gaza and the high young population is Israel's fault as it shows lack of basic research & knowledge. Hamas defeated Fatah in a battle in 2007 which followed Palestinian elections. Hamas has been in charge of Gaza ever since and so the lack of elections is entirely their responsibility. As is the belief in the primary role of women to stay & home & bear children. Along with other aspects of isis/taliban-like control of society.

That’s true. However, I thought a lot less of the US when Trump was elected and a lot less of my own country when Johnson was elected, and a lot less safe generally in the world as a consequence of those elections. I think a lot less of Israel under Netenyahu - it is a democratic country, after all, so he was a choice of sorts. There have been no elections in Gaza for a very long time. This certainly has an effect on my opinion of Israel in general and on the plight of Palestinians in Gaza (as does the fact that such a high percentage of Gaza’s population is so incredibly young).

What Netenyahu ruling Israel does not have an effect on is my opinion of Jewish people around the world in general, who are just human beings like the rest of us, with differing thoughts, feelings and opinions of their own. However, knowing that Netenyahu actually won an election in Israel does help inform my interpretation of comments by representatives of Israel and the IDF, because he is their ultimate leader, which tars them with his attitudes and reputation. They are doing his bidding, and very willingly, too.

Basically, I distrust what Israel is saying an awful lot more than I would if its leader were less corrupt, less encouraging of illegal settlement and less generally awful.

Agree with much of this, apart from blaming the Israel for antisemitism. Racism is only ever the racists fault.

This all seems to be playing out exactly as Hamas would have planned.

Also, can we please not conflate Jewish people and Israel, they
are not one and the same. Most Jews I know have never even been to Israel let
alone being responsible for the actions of the Israeli government or IDF.
Netanyahu wasn't even popular with actual Israeli citizens living in Israel.

I have no opinion on what kind of chaps they are. I do wonder why certain actors keep thinking they can destabilise regions and that everything will be good. What happened in 2003 to radicalise that region?
"The American invasion of Iraq in 2003 deeply radicalized the Houthi movement, like it did many other Arabs. It was a pivotal moment. The Houthis adopted the slogan: “God is great, death to the U.S., death to Israel, curse the Jews, and victory for Islam,” in the wake of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. The group also officially called itself Ansar Allah, or supporters of God."
^www.brookings.edu/articles/who-are-the-houthis-and-why-are-we-at-war-with-them/^

Their actions with targeting ships, opens another front, which helps Gazan civilians right now.

@sss your antisemitism seeps out of you in that description. Say that about any other country and blame the racism people suffer from and blame them for it. It won't sound so palatable.

'Many people' are not afraid to speak out. Lots of people do.

@BelleHathor ah the Houthi's an iran backed proxy whose main slogan is
Ansar allah
Death to America
Death to Israel
A curse amongst the jews.
Victory to Islam.

They sound lovely chaps.

No, the only people to blame for antisemitism are antisemites, as with any other sort of racism. To suggest the Israeli government is to blame is extraordinary.

The Houthis have seized a couple of "Israeli" (they may not sail under the flag of Israel but are ultimately owned by an Israeli) vessels over the last few weeks.

@EasterIssland you're correct if they block Israeli ships they'll have to sail around Africa. Israel's economy is heavily dependent on imports and exports. This will have a knock on effect on an economy that's already shrinking due to the conflict.

The Houthi actions have cost Israel millions already and Insurer's may refuse to insure any ships going forward.

I think most of the current leaders in the middle East will not want to see a escalation. However
I do think that the leaders of tomorrow, which will be the youth of today may not view Israel as favourably if the situation remains similar to now. Where most of the Palestinians still live under occupation.

However if a two state solution is achieved then there is more of a chance of some sort of peace

Just my opinion

Yep

Also as Hezbollah, Houthi and Hamas are all considered to be under the payment of Iran non of this is surprising anyone. Hence why Israel and America both set up straight after the pogrom to deal with them if they started anything. Then more recently America and Britain have moved more forces into the area nearby.

So long as it is only these three groups that are attacking I think Europe won't get dragged into a full out war or anything. Israel will after a period be more peaceful and continue relationships as before with most states. The surrounding states wait all three of these trouble making Iran backed group gone anyway. So again the most that they will probably do about any deaths is a like noise.