Conflict Israel and other nearby countries

Well we all knew they were after one state, are we able to call it a genocide now?

https://news.sky.com/video/israel-hamas-war-israeli-ambassador-dismisses-notion-of-two-state-solution-for-israelis-and-palestinians-13029681

As I've already said external relations are really important and have played a part in this crisis. They will also have a bearing on what happens next. This has to end in some sort of negotiation with 3rd parties involved. But Israel is not just threatened by Hamas which is why it perceives Hamas's attack as existential.What do you want us to say?

• to be clear, that should say, a corrupt leader at Israel’s helm (not that Hamas’ leadership isn’t also corrupt, of course).

Would you like to share why that is so ludicrous? I don’t think it is. I’m happy to say why. Because Netanyahu is more than happy to slaughter thousands of innocents, the vast majority of them being children. Oh and he’s not done yet, he’s going to carry on, oh and he wants any survivors to be destitute and homeless - he’s made sure of that. Oh he’s totally on a par with terrorists.

Utterly ludicrous

That’s not much of an argument* *

? No I haven’t - I was using “you” as the generic form of “one.” I would have thought that was obvious. Where the leadership of Israel is behaving in this way, it is behaving illegitimately. It is clear to me that amongst those in power in Israel are extremists who view Palestinians on land they think should belong to Israel in remarkably similar ways to the way Hamas views Israelis, with the only thing holding them back the fact that Israel is a democracy - but with a corrupt leader at its helm and an excuse to kill thousands of Palestinians, that is small consolation to Palestinians at this moment in time.

Utterly ludicrous.

I think he's corrupt and very wrong on many things certainly. But the idea that he is equivalent to the leadership of Hamas, a genocidal terrorist organisation, is beyond ridiculous

Is it though? I’m not saying Israel itself is comparable to Hamas but Netenyahu himself is not much better. And the sad thing is.. he’s in charge. More due to corruption than popularity perhaps.

@SharonEllis it's laughable that they would be compared regardless of anyone's thoughts on him.

Basically, I distrust what Israel is saying an awful lot more than I would if its leader were less corrupt, less encouraging of illegal settlement and less generally awful

I have to agree Israel’s government is a liability. Their intolerant arrogant behaviour is not doing their cause any favours.

And I distrust anyone who thinks the lack of elections in Gaza and the high young population is Israel's fault as it shows lack of basic research & knowledge

To be fair the Israeli government were quite supportive of Hamas as they were pleased they had pushed the Palestinian Authority aside.

You've mixed me up with someone else. I dont think I've mentioned the West Bank. I happen to believe the West Bank settlements are illegitimate and a block to peace.

You also can’t encourage Israeli settlement in the West Bank and claim you are behaving legitimately.

I disagree. You can’t kill tens of thousands of civilians and say any comparisons with extremists are ridiculous.

I think he's corrupt and very wrong on many things certainly. But the idea that he is equivalent to the leadership of Hamas, a genocidal terrorist organisation, is beyond ridiculous.

Even Biden has said the bombing is “indiscriminate” and insufficient care is being made to protect civilians. Am I supposed to believe someone like Netenyahu is doing anything but pay lip service?

It’s not dishonest, it is my opinion, based on Netenyahu’s behaviour towards illegal settlers and settlement in the West Bank, his long term opposition to a two state solution and the fact he is as corrupt as hell, so why on earth should I trust anything Israel says while he and his coalition are at the helm? What evidence is there that he is any more trustworthy than Hamas?

That is not their approach though. That is just dishonest.

• with the impression being, under Netenyahu, that the enemy is seen as Palestinians, not just Hamas, as Israel under Netenyahu can’t seem to distinguish between the two, or it is impossible to when your approach is to bomb the lot of them.

But my point is, as we have started here, Israel has stymied itself and I don’t believe it can bomb its way out of the situation, it is making the situation worse every day. The more it bombs, the more enemies it creates who are determined never to even try to live in peace with Israel, and the more it looks like the other side of the same coin as its enemy, apparently intent on wiping the enemy off the face of the earth, or at least off the disputed areas of land.

I agree that it is a tragedy for Israel that Netanyahu was in charge at this point. I think it highly likely that Iran and Hamas chose this moment rather deliberately because Netanyahu has been focussed on his own political survival. Various people have argued that Israeli politicians had taken their eye off the ball and that this allowed the security breach on 7 October. Mary Ann Seighart has argued that women in the IDF warned this was going to happen and were ignored. Others have argued that Iran was concerned that other Arab states, notably the Saudis were normalising relations with Israel too much and so they were keen to destabilise.

All this is very relevant to the OP.

But its no good saying' I wouldn't have started here'. Israel is here. Its citizens have been murdered and kidnapped and the people who did it have made it clear they will do it again and again.

Being called ignorant is deliberately provocative. I'm not biting.

@ssd why is it provocative? You made a statement that several people take issue with?