Conflict Israel and other nearby countries

Err no, I’m asking why Israel is killing thousands of innocent people if their target is Hamas and the Gazan people had no choice in Hamas taking power.

Your stance is that Israel is not a democracy. You haven’t said what you think the definition of democracy is.

Hamas were elected in 2006, but since then there have been no elections in Gaza.

I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make about democracy specifically.

Statement by the Yemeni Armed Forces Spox, Yahya Sarae:

The Yemeni Armed Forces announce targeting 2 container ships, “MSC Alanya” & “MSC PALATIUM III,” headed towards israeli ports, with anti-ship ballistic missiles.

The operation aims to defend the oppressed Palestinian people currently facing killing, destruction, and siege in the Gaza Strip.

This operation follows the refusal of their crews to respond to the warnings and messages issued by the Yemeni naval forces.

We reassure all ships heading to ports worldwide, except Israeli ports, that they will face no harm. They are advised to keep their identification systems open. The Yemeni Armed Forces will not hesitate to target any ship that violates the principles outlined in our previous statements.

We affirm our commitment to preventing all ships destined for Israeli ports from navigating in the Arabian and Red Seas until the needs of our steadfast brothers in Gaza for food and medicine are met.*

At least someone is taking action to defend the Palestinians.

They might not have voted for them but they're still their leaders. So they can take it up with them however you'd take something up with leaders you have elected.

You're being naive if you think Hamas aren't directly behind some of the deaths in Gaza. I don't even mean because of them using people as human shields, I mean from them killing civilians with their own guns and rockets.

The Gazans need to take it up with Hamas
How would the average Gazan do this? They didn’t vote for Hamas.
And it’s Israel who is currently killing them, not Hamas.

Err no, I’m asking why Israel is killing thousands of innocent people if their target is Hamas and the Gazan people had no choice in Hamas taking power.

@Thereissomelight you were making it sound like the Gazan's need to take it up with Hamas. As they didn't democratically elect them and their actions are leading to them being killed.

Do you think they will listen? Yesterday they were saying after war they agreed to recognise Israel and they wanted to be recognised too. Recognised as what then? If they aren't the government of Gaza?

I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at. Is it that Israel shouldn’t be at war with Hamas because Hamas are not democratically elected? And Israel isn’t a democracy either? What’s your point about democracy here?

Agree that this is the situation in Gaza.
So why, one wonders, is Israel killing thousands of Gazans, including children, because of something they didn’t vote for or have any control over? Why has it made a million people homeless?

@mondriansdog
You’re more patient than I am.
I agree that the term “democracy” is being very loosely applied in this context.

And the words “civilised” and “moral” which I also hear thrown about a lot are being entirely misapplied.

Palestinians living in Israel have the right to vote. People in Gaza can’t, because Hamas don’t hold elections there and haven’t since 2006.

If the definition of democracy isn't definitive enough for you in explaining how I define democracy, I can't help.

Palestinians are clearly are not living in a democracy if you go by that definition. In any society whereby half the people don't have freedom and human rights you can't realistically call it a democracy.

How do you define democracy?

I’m not sure the dictionary link was helpful thanks, I do already know what the word ‘democracy’ means. I also know, obviously, that some people think Israel isn’t a democracy.

I was asking how you and MissyB1 define ‘democracy’.

@Sussurations

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/democracy

the belief in freedom and equality between people, or a system of government* based on this belief, in which power is either held by elected representatives or directly by the people themselves*

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/30/israel-hasnt-been-a-democracy-for-a-long-time-now-israelis-need-to-face-this-fact

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/06/the-guardian-view-on-amnestys-israel-report-dominating-the-discourse

What’s your definition of the word democracy?

Apartheid, oppressive states are not democratic.

What definition of democracy are you using then?

Entirely depends on your definition of “democracy”.

Of course Israel is a democracy! It’s the only democracy in the Middle East.

Not at all. You dismissed experienced & highly regarded experts on the grounds that they haven't fought a war, so we can only assume that if we are expected to listen to you, you must have the relevant experience.

@Xenia the people who direct these wars all have choices on how they go about doing it. I don't agree that they don't have a choice.
The only ones who don't seem to have a choice are the innocent civilians on both sides that are suffering

Israel is not a democracy. It is an apartheid state.

I can't see where I made such a claim so your response is rather strange.

Israel ahd no choie but to defend itself. It is safer because it fought back. The Uk would similarly fight back. The US fought back after 9/11. This is what democracies do when their values and survival are threatened. It is why the Uk has nuclear weapons, an army etc. War is awful but there is sometimes no choice.

'You've signposted people to an academic and the defense editor at The Economist, both very accomplished but neither have fought in a war.'

I take it you have extensive experience of combat, military strategy & defeating terrorist organisations? Jolly good, I expect you're just waitimg for the call.

You've signposted people to an academic and the defense editor at The Economist, both very accomplished but neither have fought in a war. The consistent themes of the various rent an opinion and military experts and analysts (all of whom have seen multiple tours of duty in active combat zones) who have contributed to podcasts and YouTube interviews I have listened to is that the IDF will struggle to eradicate Hamas because:

1. The IDF bombed Gaza to smithereens before the ground invasion, this always make life harder for the offensive force. There are plenty of examples of this from the 20th century.
2. The IDF is a largely inexperienced, reservist force whose main tasks have been patrolling the West Bank, manning check points, shooting and beating unarmed civilians and monitoring the Gaza border rather than active combat against a trained force.
3. The tunnels make it easier for Hamas to pop up from under ground, attack and disappear again. This is how they have destroyed so many Israeli tanks.
4. Hamas know Gaza.
5. You cannot bomb an ideology into oblivion.

The hostages are not a concern for Israel because of the Hannibal directive, this is evidenced by their bombing without concern for where hostages might be, 50 are reported to have been killed by Israeli airstrikes. Also evidenced by the tank shelling at one of the Kibbutzim on 7th October which killed at least a dozen hostages.

The Israeli government is lying about the number of IDF casualties. The number of reported deaths seems accurate but a report today claims the data shows that 20% of those deaths are caused by "friendly fire" which is hardly surprising when you think about the stress a bunch of 20 year olds, with no combat experience, must be experiencing in Gaza. The number of injured IDF soldiers was reported as 5000 for a brief time but was the amended to 2000. Haaretz investigated and found that the rate of hospital admissions supports the original 5000 figure and that 2000 was probably a more accurate number for the soldiers left permanently disabled. That's 2000 young men and women left permanently disabled after a little more than a month of fighting.

The 2009 Amnesty International Report: 22 Days of Death and Destruction found evidence that the IDF use Palestinians as human shields but little to corroborate claims that Hamas do, although it keeps being repeated, as they say every accusation is a confession.

I have no doubt that Israel would obliterate Gaza if they felt confident they could take on Turkey, Egypt, Lebanon and Iran at the same time and win but it seems here, at least, they are more realistic about their capabilities.