Theories on why the US government are making themselves complicit in war crimes to support Israel

@jammysocks So your analysis would be what?

@Anotherdayanotherdiet

"Pulled out, yet kept people firmly behind a wall rationing electricity, water etc."

Yep, no problem there that you can see 1dayatatime?"

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So my post was to point out to @HeidiInTheBigCity that her post see below was factually incorrect in relation to Gaza.

"No, of course Israel "did not cross the border" - that would be because they have been "across the border" all along! They, literally, have been illegally occupying the Gaza Strip, West Bank, and East Jerusalem since 1967"

Rather than concede this point in relation to Gaza the counter argument then became what about keeping people behind a wall and rationing water and electricity. At no point did I reference walls, water or electricity.

Can you see how in order to have an informed, grown up and educated debate on this topic and more importantly a solution it is essential to debate based on facts rather than emotion.

It has certainly been alleged

Oh, so not proven then?

Pulled out, yet kept people firmly behind a wall rationing electricity, water etc.

Yep, no problem there that you can see 1dayatatime?

It is telling that the counter argument is not clear, accurate or articulate but simply shouting down

Seems fairly clear to me.

It does look like Biden is losing support in the US, particularly amongst young voters, which is possibly why the US is pushing to have it resolved sooner rathe than later.
"According to a recent NBC poll, a striking 70% of voters ages 18 to 34 say they disapprove of Biden’s handling of the Israel-Hamas war. A Pew poll published this week charted a similar trend, with just 19% of Americans under 30 approving of the president’s response."
Israel-Gaza war sets Biden at odds with youth of America | US politics | The Guardian

@Livelovelaugh028384

"@1dayatatime 25k hamas terrorists makes its ok to bomb houses where there are babies. In every country the most vulnerable are looked at first and how Protection and support they can be given but not Israel. If they truly cared for civilians they would have sorted transport for the babies, elderly and disabled. They have all the information im pretty sure they could've done a fact check met them at a check point and had them transported to the south instead of making them walk for 5 hours or more.

Also, theres Christians in Palestine they are getting killed the same as the Muslims so to think its likely to be a Palestine Islamic jihad think again. Unless it's only considered terrorism when its aomeone who follows islam. Churches are being destroyed too and they will have lost their loved ones just as much as the Muslims.

If we're wrong that israel has been controlling Gaza and it stopped in 2005 why are there 1000s of children who have been arrested since then. Why are there videos of settlers illegally taking the homes of those in Palestine.

Israel is so moral they have soldiers who dedicated bombs going off to their children as a birthday present. They are so moral there's videos of destroying Palestine property while laughing. Playing with bikes when the area is covered in rubble with possible dead bodies underneath. Just today videos of the so called defenders of Israel who also care so fucking much about Palestine destroying toys and laughing. Mmmh maybe hamas was in the stickers and toys they destroyed."

++++

Your post illustrates really well the point I was making about debate on many topics including the current situation in Gaza has become emotionally driven rather than fact based making discussion very infantile. Where if I shout louder than the other opinion that must make me right rather than being based what I am actually saying.

I know I am wasting my time because what is important to you is emotion rather than facts but on this occasion I will go through your points.

"@1dayatatime 25k hamas terrorists makes its ok to bomb houses where there are babies"

"They have all the information im pretty sure they could've done a fact check met them at a check point and had them transported to the south instead of making them walk for 5 hours or more. "

Your point was why didn't Israel lay on transport to take civilians from north to south in Gaza and not the bombing of houses where there are babies. I responded that because there is a war going on with 25k Hamas wanting to kill Israelis. If the Israelis had indeed lay on transport then it is highly likely that Hamas would have attacked this transport convoy killing both Israelis and Gazan civilians.

As for a fact check on who is and isn't a Hamas terrorist the point is that Hamas are not like a regular army in a uniform but they are terrorists who hide within the civilian population. When they are not physically holding a weapon Israel doesn't know who is and isn't a terrorist, it is not as simple as filling in a questionnaire asking whether you are or are not a terrorist.

If you cannot see this then you are either incredibly naive or have no understanding of the situation on the ground.

"so to think its likely to be a Palestine Islamic jihad think "

This is based on the most recent evidence by the Washington Post on the popularity of Hamas within Gaza which shows most support for Palestinian Islamic Jihad and lions Den:

www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah#:~:text=Overall%2C%2057%25%20of%20Gazans%20express,view%20of%20Fatah%20(64%25).

"If we're wrong that israel has been controlling Gaza and it stopped in 2005 why are there 1000s of children who have been arrested since then. Why are there videos of settlers illegally taking the homes of those in Palestine. "

Because Gaza and the West Bank are two separate places which again demonstrates your lack of understanding. Israeli settlers are indeed illegally building settlements and arresting Palestinians but this is occurring in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

"Just today videos of the so called defenders of Israel who also care so fucking much about Palestine destroying toys and laughing. Mmmh maybe hamas was in the stickers and toys they destroyed."

I am guessing that the video you are referring to is this:

@1dayatatime 25k hamas terrorists makes its ok to bomb houses where there are babies. In every country the most vulnerable are looked at first and how Protection and support they can be given but not Israel. If they truly cared for civilians they would have sorted transport for the babies, elderly and disabled. They have all the information im pretty sure they could've done a fact check met them at a check point and had them transported to the south instead of making them walk for 5 hours or more.

Also, theres Christians in Palestine they are getting killed the same as the Muslims so to think its likely to be a Palestine Islamic jihad think again. Unless its only considered terrorism when its aomeone who follows islam. Churches are being destroyed too and they will have lost their loved ones just as much as the Muslims.

If we're wrong that israel has been controlling Gaza and it stopped in 2005 why are there 1000s of children who have been arrested since then. Why are there videos of settlers illegally taking the homes of those in Palestine.

Israel is so moral they have soldiers who dedicated bombs going off to their children as a birthday present. They are so moral there's videos of destroying Palestine property while laughing. Playing with bikes when the area is covered in rubble with possible dead bodies underneath. Just today videos of the so called defenders of Israel who also care so fucking much about Palestine destroying toys and laughing. Mmmh maybe hamas was in the stickers and toys they destroyed.

America wants to show they still have influence in the ME

and there is an election next year the US standing up for west values (even better against Muslims) is good for votes

@PeasfullPerson
You may find the following video by MSNBC useful
Essentially, a lot of money has been spent by AIPAC - a pro-Israel lobby to ensure that Pro-Israeli candidates are elected into office in the US (regardless of party)

Beyond people's feelings towards Israel, no foreign state should have that level of influence on another Countries government.

You can also find how much each specific candidate has received here, https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/pro-israel/q05/2020/recips

Pulled out, yet kept people firmly behind a wall rationing electricity, water etc. Yes.

@HeidiInTheBigCity

"Are you fucking kidding me?

No, of course Israel "did not cross the border" - that would be because they have been "across the border" all along! They, literally, have been illegally occupying the Gaza Strip, West Bank, and East Jerusalem since 1967"

+++

Whilst it is correct to state that Israel has been illegally occupying and building settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. It is factually incorrect to state that Israel has been occupying Gaza (which is what this current conflict is about). Israel pulled all Israelis out of Gaza in 2005.

It is this emotionally driven factually incorrect shouty counter argument that is the problem and simply polarises the topic, entrenching opinions and making any solution that much more difficult.

@Livelovelaugh028384

"I don't remember seeing videos where they arranged transport for them to travel from the North to the south? "

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In Gaza there are approximately 25k Hamas terrorists intent on killing Israeli soldiers. Do you think that it is a credible or realistic suggestion that the Israelis or any other organisation arrange transport for civilians to move from North to South?

Sadly you are correct that it it is highly likely that even if (and it is questionable whether that this is achievable) Hamas are removed from power then their replacement (most likely Palestinian Islamic Jihad) will be more extreme in their aim of destroying the state of Israel.

So we sadly see a situation where the attack by Hamas was deliberately intended to provoke an attack by Israel. This in turn creates a retaliatory attack by Israel on Gaza which in turn creates greater extremism by the political representation of ordinary Palestinians. Which in turn creates further retaliation by Israel. To be very clear Hamas do not care about Palestinian civilians.

Where we differ is that I do not see that shift to greater extremism by Palestinians as something to sympathise with as that will only lead to greater bloodshed of civilian casualties on both sides leaving the only solution being "last man standing".

I would much rather sympathise with a recognition by Israel that the only viable solution is a two state solution and a recognition by ordinary Palestinians that their best hope of a stable and peaceful future is through their own and their political leaders acceptance of the right of the state of Israel to exist.

A clear, accurate and articulate summary.

It is telling that the counter argument is not clear, accurate or articulate but simply shouting down.

One thing I know after the past 2 months is this is going to breed a generation in gaza if they are not fully wiped out where they will seek revenge. I for 1 when it happens will not condem them because we all saw it happening as well as those in power. They are complicit and always will be.

What's worrying here is you're being serious in your post.
They kill children for throwing stones. They told people to flee ok well done to them but flee where? To the south? Wait isn't that being bombed too? How did they tell them to flee? I don't remember seeing videos where they arranged transport for them to travel from the North to the south? They had to walk for hours children, elderly, men, woman newborn babies in their arms. They had to get there by foot. Don't try and make it seem like the IDF have morals. Change your tune seriously, getting sick and tired of hearing they told them to flee.

You say civilians are not being attacked say that to the men that were stripped and humiliated. Say it to the 9000 dead children. The elderly people who couldn't escape.

Are you fucking kidding me?

No, of course Israel "did not cross the border" - that would be because they have been "across the border" all along! They, literally, have been illegally occupying the Gaza Strip, West Bank, and East Jerusalem since 1967.

I shall grant you that they have not "crossed the border". They have been there since before, with their tanks, with their guns, with their extremist settlers, with their bombs - terrorising ordinary Palestinians on a daily basis as a matter of "casual daily errand". They have been there since before Hamas, founded in 1987, even existed!

And as for "but, but, but ... Israel does not target civilians": fist of all, this is arguably not true. I refer you to the groundbreaking investigation by +972 Magazine and Local Call, also reported in the Guardian, for why!

But if it were, if all those dead civilians were really just "inintended collateral damage", then we would have to conclude that - in their morally rigteous quest to avoid civilian casualties - the IDF are so insanely incompetent that it should be an international security imperative to disarm and dissolve them on the grounds that any organisation so ridiculously incapable of using deadly weapons in line with its supposed goals should never be allowed near any deadly weapons in the first place!

But that is really just a hypothetical. The ugly truth is, of course, to quote the IDF spokesperson: "our focus is on damage, not on accuracy". The ugly truth is - to paraphrase and summarise defense minister Gallant, PM Netanyahu, president Herzog, and many more: "all Palestinians are bad, not even human - we are good!". The truth is, of course: they do it on purpose, and they genuinely think they are justified!

Agreed.

The IDF did not cross the border without announcing their intent, they did not massacre, rape, torture and hunt innocent civilians the way Hamas did. This is a war, not an attack. A war that Hamas started. And in war people - if they do not take the advice given to them to flee - may get killed.

It has certainly been alleged that the IDF are responsible for torturing detainees and straight up shooting people for throwing stones at them so I’m not convinced their conduct is perfect.

@IlCocodrillo pull the other one

Civilian casualties in wars are always a tragedy. The belligerents ought to always minimize those casualties. What is also true is that collateral damage, as heart rending as it may be, have always been a central component of armed conflicts, which is why war regulations specifically state that civilian casualties are not prohibited per se because they can't be; what is prohibited is deliberately and specifically targeting those civilians. A war crime is not civilians dying; it's civilians being targeted and singled out.

Israel are targeting Hamas, not civilians. Israel give the Palestinians advanced warnings to move from the areas that they want to attack. The IDF did not cross the border without announcing their intent, they did not massacre, rape, torture and hunt innocent civilians the way Hamas did. This is a war, not an attack. A war that Hamas started. And in war people - if they do not take the advice given to them to flee - may get killed.

I’m sorry for those that don’t want to hear it but those are the facts. The only war crimes are those being committed by Hamas.

I expect it’s because they feel it’s in their interests in some way. Maybe they like having an ally in the Middle East. Maybe something to do with economics.

This is quite an interesting article in The Guardian about the US relationship with Israel; It also highlights how Israel has resisted a peace process. US wasn’t always Israel’s strongest ally – what changed and why? | US foreign policy | The Guardian